Although the practice of ‘swinging’ is portrayed as hip and cool, the reality is often very different. What was once labeled as ‘wife swapping’ or ‘open marriage’ has been given the title of swinging in order to have more mass appeal.
I cannot speak for all swingers, but only those I have worked with. I have seen the brokenness that swinging produces and the damage it leaves in its wake.
Many wives are caught up in swinging at the insistence of their spouses. They initially go along with the idea since they want their husbands to be happy. There are even sites that tell husbands how to talk their wives into swinging.
First, swingers have to find a way into the ‘network.’ In each city with a swinging network, there are prescribed places to meet that have been pre-selected.
One must be ‘in the know’ to be aware of which club they must attend that evening. The clubs often charge a fee, with a required number of drinks for the couple.
Initially, there is either fear of the unknown or the excitement of dressing up and going somewhere filled with activity. There is something about when you put on formal clothes, meet new people, and go to exotic places that are exciting and stimulating.
Children are often sent off for the weekend in order to avoid embarrassing moments associated with being found out.
Once at the pre-selected club, the couples mingle, drink, and dance. After a few hours, the alcohol kicks in and then it is time for a ‘get-together at someone’s home, retreat or boat’. The locations are often exclusive, adding a sense of unreality and fantasy to what is going on.
When the lifestyle begins, there is plenty of excitement about doing something different and dangerous. Once the couple becomes immune to the danger and conscience, the excitement of dress up and drama associated with human relationships often takes over to keep the adrenaline pumping.
The spouse engages in activities that they may find distasteful only because it pleases their spouse. In this mix of people, emotion, and alcohol, the feelings of arousal and pleasing the spouse are often confused.
The result is a lifestyle full of secrets, guilt, shame, and remorse. Yes, there was excitement, although there are often more memories of things they wish to forget. There is the anxiety of running into someone from ‘the club’. You do not want others to find out, yet are stimulated when you encounter someone else from the ‘club’ or ‘lifestyle’.
There is the possibility of someone finding out who they do not wish to find out. What if your parents, children, or grandparents find out? What if you run into your child’s teacher, principal or coach? Suddenly, how you see the world changes in ways you never imagined.
It becomes another world with its own set of rules and control over the people. It becomes a world that owns the couple rather than them owning their own world. The glamor is deceiving. It tricks people into a lifestyle that will forever change them and their conscience. It’s a glossy way to hide sexual addictions and affairs and try to make them acceptable.
Much like the photoshopped images of porn stars, the glamor of the swinger lifestyle has been doctored and made to look better than it is.
When the parties are over, the couple are often left with the reality that the swinging was nothing more than affairs and orgies on a grand scale.
If you’re struggling with the effects of swinging, you may be experiencing relationship trauma. These symptoms include using drugs or alcohol in increasing amounts, depressed moods, low energy, restlessness, anxiety, sleep problems, stomach problems, and lowered resistance to illnesses.
Rather than suffer through the relationship trauma, there’s help. You don’t have to get drunk or take pills or medications to numb yourself out and keep symptoms under control.
When you’ve been traumatized, there are reasons for you not being able to get over it and bounce back. Discover the tools, exercises, and techniques you need to understand and move past what has happened to you.
Overcoming Relationship Trauma for Swingers provides support designed to help you move past what happened, including overcoming the trauma and ways of reducing the risk of relapse.
Best Regards,
Jeff
110 Responses
my husband and i have been married for 7 years, and when we first got together he talked about swinging but that was just not me. I was in a bad marriage for 20 years and i finally found someone that i truely loved. well he continued and finally i gave in and i am so very unhappy and the swinging lifestyle is not for me. i can not stand to see him with another woman, but this is what makes him happy because i do not think i do anymore… when we do this his attitude is so up beat and he is so excited… before we started swinging we would have sex every night and now we may have it once or twice a week did i ruin my marriage by agreeing to do this can I ever get the love i had for him back or is it gone forever… Just for example we have been talking to a couple and have not met them yet and today my husband was so angry and upset over what i have no idea. but as soon as he started talking to this female his attitude has totally changed and my heart is broke.. I hate my life and I hate doing this and im so scared I have lost him.. all i do it think of what it looked like seeing him with another woman and it kills me .. we have ruined that special bond and i am totally sick. if anyone is thinking about doing this dont if you need something more just get out of the marriage.
Mary,
It breaks my heart to hear about how swinging has damaged your marriage. It was especially strong when you mentioned “we have ruined that special bond”. I am sure that you truly did love him and were willing to do what it took to make him happy, even to the point of ignoring your own gut reaction and inner voice. Your description of your husbands reaction reminds me of a child with a new toy in terms of new conquests and new women to chase after. Swinging has its own excitement with the dressing up and anticipation. Despite the excitement of doing something together, this activity often leaves those couples feeling further apart. The unique and special relationship bond is no longer ‘unique’ and special. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I hope that those who are exploring that lifestyle listen to what you are trying to tell them.
Let’s be careful with our analysis. The negative issue that you describe arising from swinging are literally rampant amongst non swingers. Amen! In fact our society has reached a point where the majority of marriages fall apart—how many are truly happy? We have to stop sticking our head in the sand or practicing insanity (which is doing the same thing and expecting a different result). My wife and I have been together 30 years and we already had a very strong sexual connection for us it was an adventure together that definitely had a few surprises and a few lessons. Overall we enjoy swinging and realze with any activity that their has to be boundaries. If you are in a bad relationship I would be shocked if it didn’t destroy it because you are going to meet some nice people and natrually become attracted to them—-you are already emotionally vulnerable but that’s the case BEFORE you come into swinging. I hate to admit it but our society is so sexually repressive that it distorts all of our personalities. My love and passion for my wife continues to grow just like it did before swinging. Even if women come into this and only dress sexy they will find an enhancement to their marriage and increase in self confidence that they never knew existed. When people shoot down swinging always ask them what their relationship was like BEFORE they started. It probably was on the down slope already.
Wayne,
Thanks for writing. My experience with swinging has not been from my participation in it, but rather from working as a counselor with people suffering from the results of swinging. That is why I entitled the post, “The Dark Side of Swinging”. I would agree with you in that many times couples who try swinging are looking to fix something in their marriage. For some couples, it temporarily improves their sex life. It adds excitement in terms of giving them something to look forward to and play ‘dress up’.
I see many more negatives than positives to swinging. The issues of emotional bonding, soul ties, and supercharging the fantasy life are significant concerns that undermine marriages. Unleashing repressed sexuality may bring a release, although the price tag in the areas above are enormous. There are also issues in the spiritual dimension that add to that. If increased sexual activity were the answer, then porn stars would be the healthiest and best adjusted people on the planet. My experience is that they are not. They often struggle with pain, loneliness and a myriad of other issues, although repressed sexuality is not one of them.
Swinging is more rampant than many people realize. I wanted to alert my readers to the potential dangers. There are many spouses who are willing to try things just because their partner wants them too without considering the consequences. With swinging, the unwitting spouse is often seeking answers that swinging does not provide.
My husband and I went into swinging after being married for 14 years. We went in a strong couple (so we thought). About 5 months ago, he told me that he had had a secret affair with a female counterpart of a couple that we had both been with previously. He stated that it was an emotional affair, not based on sex. Our sex life had always been amazing….. This has completely thrown me for a loop. This woman was supposedly my friend, and they met and stayed in hotels on several occasions when my husband was supposedly working night shift. She sent him a secret phone so that they could communicate without being found out. They were found out by her husband, and he finally told me 2 weeks later. We are now 5 months into trying to recover and this is one of the most difficult things I have ever gone through in my life. I trusted him completely, although I always had a difficult time watching him with another woman. The swinging, meeting other open couples, partying, dressing up, and just the excitement of something new was exhilarating…..for a while. We actually thought it was bringing us closer together in the beginning, however we are extremely disconnected at the moment. We are working hard to repair this broken relationship because we have a deep caring and I hope still love for one another, but we are not the only couple going through difficulty with regard to the exploration of the lifestyle. Although couples may think they are not taking any risks swinging, it changes you. It changes the way you interact with your spouse, and it changes the relationship….forever. He was always my “rock” and we are struggling to get back to a good place once again.
Amber,
Thank you for sharing. In reading your response, I felt like I was hit with a double-whammy, one from the affair, the other from the shock of assuming that the two of you were feeling closer, when the opposite was happening. It left me with a stunned sensation. That is quite a rude awakening. I am glad to hear that the two of you are working on things. It is easy to confuse intensity for intimacy. With all the dressing up and socializing, there is a glitzy appeal to it. The fun, excitement and exhilaration of swinging is definitely intense, but that is not the same thing as the closeness, and soul-sharing of intimacy. Taking steps to improve your relationship will pay off. Time spent building your marriage relationship always yields benefits.
We’ve been married for 25 years and started swinging 4 years ago. My husband wanted to, and I said no. But then, I got drunk and let my inhibitions down when we were with a swinging couple. The next thing you know, we were doing things with this married couple that I never intended to do. I regretted what happened, but the other wife told me how swinging helped spice up their marriage. She was a Christian. Actually, there are a lot of people who swing and then profess to be a Christian and somehow make peace about it.
Reluctantly, I agreed to start into this lifestyle. It pleased my husband. I, too, found the excitement , in the beginning. At first. Within a year, I was writing in my journal about how I hated what I had done. I still can’t get over that small voice telling me it’s immoral. I feel like a hypocrite in church. I keep thinking about Adam and Eve. Adam only ate the apple because Eve offered it, but he had the choice to not eat of it. I wear a crown of shame.
We often get together with one particular couple. I had no intention of getting together with the male without my spouse, but because of schedules my husband and his wife have gotten together separately multiple times. All three others kept pushing and pushing me until I finally agreed to meet the husband separately. Once I did agree, I couldn’t quit thinking about our upcoming time together. I never think about upcoming intimacy with my husband like that. The last two times my husband has gotten together separately with the other wife, he has “told” me he was going right before going. He didn’t ask ahead of time if it was okay to plan a time. I was so jealous and didn’t want anything to do with him. Sure, I could have called him off and he would have cancelled, at an unspoken price.
Bottom line is that I want out of this arrangement. It is slowly killing me, unless I can change my core beliefs and stifle that small still voice inside. However, I fear that now that we have crossed this line as a couple, taking a break from swinging will kill my marriage. I have gotten to the point of praying for some big issue like HIV to happen to put a stop to it. I feel like I just have to wait it out until my kids have graduated from high school.
Funny thing, I thought we had a very healthy marriage before this started. Now, I feel we are on two different planets and not sure that we will make it.
Thank you for sharing about your situation.
Being torn between the torment that comes with the still small voice and the fear of killing your marriage is an uncomfortable place to be. The way you describe it sounds more like a trap that was initially exciting, but now is hard to escape. Like the old song, “Hotel California”, you feel like you can not leave. There have definitely been some lines crossed. At times you really are in another world since the expectations and lifestyle is so very different from what you had before. The emotional bonding that takes place will have you feeling all torn up.
I want to encourage you that you can get out. It is not a pit that you can never crawl out of. It is not by accident that Scripture talks about being lifted up out of the ‘miry clay’, since that is the kind of clay that sticks to you and resists being washed off. Getting out will take an active effort by you and your spouse. Hoping for a passive intervention like HIV or something similar to that will only serve to delay action. The more passive you are, the deeper into the muck you will find yourself.
One of the reasons for this is that in order to stifle the ‘still small voice’, people will either try to medicate/drink/smoke/snort the pain away OR do increasingly outrageous acts so as to sear your conscience. With that option, you will have to get increasingly more extreme to blot out the reaction from the previous acts. That is not a healthy kind of love. It may be sensually stimulating to the point of overwhelming you, but it is not a healthy love. Healthy love does not feel guilty the next morning. Healthy love does not have shame. Healthy love does not have to keep secrets. I John 4:18 addresses this (There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.) If the ‘love’ you experience in swinging has fear or torment, it is not the good kind of love.
Many Christians, like others have been trapped in the swinger lifestyle. Being a Christian does not automatically make you immune. You commented, “there are a lot of people who swing and then profess to be a Christian and somehow make peace about it.” My experience has been that they do not really have peace about it. They often use large amounts of alcohol or medications to appease their conscience. You are likely seeing the medicated version of the person, rather than the unmedicated version. You also know that a BIG part of the swinger scene is ‘dressing up’ and putting on appearances. This includes appearing to be okay with what is happening.
Being a Christian can provide hope and strength for you when you choose to leave such a lifestyle. It can help you move past the memories and fears associated with what happened. Getting out often requires plenty of hope and strength. Rather than praying for a passive out, you may want to consider prayers like Hosea prayed for his prostitute wife Gomer, when he was praying that she leave her ‘lifestyle’ behind and having her lovers loose interest in her. The account is found in the first couple of chapters of the book. It may give you some ideas to start with.
Getting out of the lifestyle will mean that your marriage will need some changes. Before I escaped a mess I was in, an older counselor told me “You are a lot further away from God than you think you are”. His statement has stayed with me over the years. I did not want to believe it, yet learned it was true. I mention that episode since your marriage may not have been as healthy as you thought it was.
If you have further questions feel free to write to my private email Jeff@RestoreTheFamily.com given the sensitive nature of what you are dealing with.
Prayerfully,
Jeff
So I guess I’m in limbo. I have been married for 8 years, love my wife with every breath that I take, have an amazing family however I have cheated on her with 5 women over the 8 years. Recently she has been traveling traveling and I’ve always had a fantasy of her having sex with another man.
This fantasy stems from my younger years when I use to have threesomes with my best friend. We would both take her and it was very exciting then I got to the point where I would just rather watch and in some cases not want to be around at all but rather her tell me all about it.
I thought hat I wanted this same feeling or relationship with my wife and over the years I had always told her it would be okay for her to act on her sexual needs if the opportunity knocked. For years she said I was crazy and that all she wanted was me and this will never happen but would always indulge my fantasy by pretending that she had slept with someone while away but always told me after climax that it was never true and honestly I felt better after climaxing that it was just that a fantasy.
Well she went on a business trip just recently and guess what he fantasy became reality. She came home and wanted sex none stop and I had no clue why. It was as if a libido bomb had gone off I mean wow we had sex 4 times in less than 12 hours. The weekend was the same she couldn’t keep her hands off me.
She told me that she felt like she was just hitting her sexual peak that women talk about getting in their early 30’s and to be honest our sex life had been very boring or non existing for a while now so I was pumped that she was turned on all he time.
We had discussed in the past maybe going to a swingers event to watch people have sex live since watching porn was a turn on and we starting bringing that into the bedroom to spice things up and when I said I had found out information on that life style she was all about checking it out. One thing I read was that couples who engage in this life style need to be open and honest with each other and I conveyed this to her and asked if she wanted to tell me anything.
At this point I was hoping but not really that she would say that she had an affair in the past so that I could feel better about my indiscretions but she didn’t until after about 15 mins she said I need to tell you that I did have sex on my last trip with another man. My stomach dropped and I thought I was going to die. I just never thought she would do this my perfect wife the women who I always tempted but never acted because she knows better finally bit that Apple.
It took me a week or so to not think about them all the time but it still bothers me and since then that following week we went to a swingers party and had amazing sex not swapping but in the same room with another couple. We followed that up with another party that following weekend doing the same thing.
Now I feel lost. I like the idea of this but my gut doesn’t and I feel like this could ruin my amazing marriage with the perfect person. I feel like divorce rate is so high and that everyone cheats shit I did 5 times and never told her and yet I’m pissed that she had sex after I said it was okay. I mean I feel like I would rather her be able to enjoy sex while on business trips since there or o feel like there isn’t any potential for her to get attached since these trips are in other states and short but maybe I’m just being naive to the whole situation.
All I know is our love has grown stronger, I treat her like a queen with the thoughts that if I don’t someone else will but that’s dumb because that could have happened years ago and only now am I concerned. Our communication if off the charts right now and all we want to do is talk and be with each other.
I’m so confused because sometimes I don’t want her to have sex while away and other times I fine it a turn on and enjoy what we have right now but just don’t want to wake up one day thinking wtf did we do to our marriage.
It seems I’m confused and all over the map which could lead to a bomb waiting to go off however she has said multiple times that if I truly do not want this that she won’t do it ever again and I believe her. I to just want her to be happy sexually and not need to worry about her having an affair behind my back.
Let’s hope this doesn’t blow up and I’m writing a different story later. I find it odd that I ca cheat but am still pissed that she had sex/ cheated without telling me right away.
Mike,
Thank you for writing. You have many reasons for experiencing confusion. Some of your fantasies have come true, your communication with your wife is “off the charts”, the two of you are enjoying talking withe each other and have recently had some intense sexual experience. At the same time, there are fears that someone may take her away, the reality that she finally slept with another man, as you have with other women and the whole potential of the swingers lifestyle ahead of you. In many ways, it is as if you are standing between two worlds.
From what you shared, as long as your wife having an affair was a fantasy, it was palatable. When it became real, things changed. At that point, reality started impinging on your fantasies. She really did it! It was no longer make believe. She finally did what you had been encouraging her to do, and it was not exactly what you had imagined.
For many who have cheated, there is fun and excitement when there are clear lines between fantasy and reality. In their fantasy world, they can ‘go wild’ and let their imagination unleash. This works as long as they have security in their real life relationships. When the lines blur, then there is a crisis. The security that once existed is gone and all that is left is the excitement. Such an existence is exhilarating for the initial thrill, but makes for a shaky marriage and family situation. There is an initial honeymoon where this ‘new life’ is filled with grins and good times. Few people are able to keep the ‘fun and excitement’ going for very long. All circuses eventually come to an end. When it does, you realize your marriage has changed. Your whole life has changed. Your wife is no longer someone exclusive to you. Those special bonds that existed between the two of you are now shared by others. There is nothing ‘special’ or safe about your marriage at that point. Husbands and wives become interchangeable. You will now have to deal with competitors, who may have more money, or bedroom skills, or stamina that you do not. Your may find yourself with the illusion (fantasy) of a secure marriage and the reality of wild sex, which is just the opposite of where you started, with the fantasy of wild sex and the reality of a secure marriage.
When your wife tells you that “if I truly do not want this that she won’t do it ever again”, it may be her cry for help. She may want you happy to the point that she is willing to sacrifice her convictions and passions so as to you “Happy, Happy, Happy”, while she is breaking inside. Your gut may be telling you something you need to listen to. Swinging is very stimulating and your body will want more, more, more and since your mind hates dissonance, it will attempt excusing what is happening. It is harder to fool the gut. It often knows what is best when you listen to it. How often has your gut steered you wrong? Your gut telling you “this could ruin your marriage” is not a message you want to ignore. You can still pull out of the lifestyle at this point. You could return to your marriage exclusivity for 6-8 months, then be in a better place to decide is swinging is the best choice for you, your wife and your marriage. You need to be concerned with her happiness as well.
Best Regards,
Jeff Murrah
My husband and I have discussed attending a swinging party. We have been together for five years and married for 1 1/2 years. I feel that our bond will be broken and this will lead to destruction. I’m highly sexual an I fear that my sexual desires could become out of control. I told my husband how I felt and he agreed that we don’t have to do this. He just wanted to attend the party to spice things up. I’m not feeling it.
Cynthia,
Thank you for writing. Your hesitancy is well founded. One of the dangers of swinging parties is that they do elevate sexual desires. The level of intensity often “takes you to the next level” by stimulating the higher parts of the brain. The sexual high is intense, yet has some major risks. When you are stimulated to that level, risk taking is also elevated and inhibitions are lowered. That makes for a dangerous combination, which the other swingers are hoping to happen. When you sexual intensity is taken to a higher level, returning to ‘routine sex’ is no longer as exciting. The intense stimulation of the sexual portion of your nervous system has consequences. Once it is turned on, it will not want to be slowed down or turned off. It will change your life. The longer you stay stimulated, the less self-control and inhibition you will have. With each experience, you will loose more. The price tag for the intense high is that ‘normal life’ will become a thing of the past.
You are also right that the bonds will be changed. Perhaps not broken, but definitely changed.
I suspect that the many talks may have been a ‘softening up’ of your resistance to the idea.
The best analogy I can tell you is that the high from cocaine is more intense than that from pot. Once you have been activated at that level, you feel like anything else is ‘life in the slow lane’. Once your nervous system is turned on, it will not want to go back to lower levels of functioning.
I am glad that you are not ‘feeling it’. Trust your gut.
Best Regards,
Jeff Murrah
“What came first, the chicken or the egg?” I believe the issues you bring up are not limited to swinging. I have a friend were his wife was into organic food, gluten free, and all sorts of lifestyle changes he did not sign up for. The title for this blog post should be the dark side of exploring other lifestyles, because the concepts are not unique to swinging. I dont intend on challenging your points, just wanted to point out the fact that correlation is not causation.
Mark,
Thank you for comments. Exploring other lifestyles has its risks. Each lifestyle has its own dangers. Swinging has many life-changing risks that are often glossed over. There are mixed opinions of swinging with some communities reporting few if any problems with it. There are also some communities that experience major problems with swinging. There are also elements in the swinging community that make it increasingly dangerous.
Some of those dangers include the development of cult-like thinking, spreading of STD’s, hiding sexual addictions and a host of psychological issues associated with the activity. The problems do raise the chicken or the egg question. Does swinging attract unhealthy participants or does swinging make the people dysfunctional? Either way, on the back end, there are many broken people left in the rubble. I realize that as a counselor, I am not likely to have the healthy functional types see me for that issue, if they exist. I do know from working with the wounded, that there is a dark side of swinging filled with dangers and risks that people need to be aware of.
My husband and I have been married for 46 years. It has been a struggle. When we where married about 2 years, he started talking about going to bed with the neighbors. The man was his best friend. He would not stop trying to talk me into this. We went out one night and ended up coming home and it happened in our home. We had 2 little boys. My husband took the other woman to our bed and had sex. The next morning she called and left me know it was good, it broke my heart to pieces. I was devastated We struggled and we were in the process of building a home. We were both 19 years old. After several years he started on me again until I gave in. My husband was never one that showed affection or talked. Well it happened. I was an at home mom and our boys were in school now. I started a conversation with a man who was doing work by our home. We talked and just became friendly. One thing led to another and we ended up having an affair. It was over a period of time, there was sex a few times but it I really could not get strong feelings for him. I think I was looking for someone to care. My husband did not know that I was having the affair however, he started talking about swinging with this guy and his girlfriend. I think i wanted everything to end and I told my husband what was going on. Life has been hell ever since. Now I am 65 and I guess I am stuck for the rest of my life. My husband tells me that he can not forget or forgive me for what I did and that what we did with the neighbors was different because we were all involved.
I can not accept that and I feel that he was just as much at fault for ruining our marriage as i was. Is there anything that you can tell me that might help me out with this inner turmoil that I have. It is getting to the point were i don’t have a lot of feelings for my husband .
Barbs,
Thank you for writing. Your situation is a complex, heartbreaking one. I wish I could make my response smoother, yet with such a situation, there are no smooth or easy answers. Affairs make things difficult and swinging makes it even worse. Your husbands badgering you into swinging was not good. He only looked at the immediate gratification of his sensual desires. He either did not realize or want to admit that such actions weaken the bonding of marriage and increase the risk of affairs.
Sadly, many affairs begin with people are just friends getting too intimate. What your husband does not realize is that his insistence on the swing planted the seeds for this happening. Apparently, in his moral thinking, the affair is viewed as being worse than swinging, based solely on how with swinging, the guilt was spread around all parties.
From what you wrote, your husband does not see the swinging as ‘an affair’. He has blinders on that keep him from seeing it. The fact that he was lusting and planning to sleep with the girlfriend is now being minimized. Sadly, now he is playing the self-righteous card. The addition of he “can not forget or forgive you” is being used to leverage the situation.
In my line of thinking, he took the lead in ruining the bonds of your marriage, although he is wanting to avoid leadership at this time. Instead of assuming responsibility, he is hiding behind his ‘sharing the blame’ game.
One of the issues that complicates things is that men and women view sex differently. The meanings that each of you attach to what happened will need to be talked about with each other, with BOTH the affair and swinging.
Turning the situation around will require the whole swinging episode to be dealt with and resolved. It damaged the marriage. That is where the bonds were cracked. It will need to be admitted that it weakened the bonds of your marriage bond. Once that happens, then the two of you can start work on strengthening your relationship. It will take honesty in dealing with both the strengths and weak points that each of you have.
Jeff
I think it’s important to spread awareness about any alternative lifestyle, however don’t feel it should be framed as an activity that causes extreme distress. While I can appreciate the fact that as a counselor you’ve worked with the distressed, we can’t claim that swinging “is a lifestyle filled with secrets guilt shame and remorse.” What you are describing are emotions, emotions that are a result of a person’s specific set of beliefs, identity, values, and perceptions- all existing *before* ever entering the lifestyle. So you have two people that enter an alternative lifestyle that goes against thier ideals, values and perceptions, under the persuasion of a dopamine high. Of course the results are disastrous. It’s a direct contradiction to core values, beliefs, and perceptions. Any action that you participate in that generally violates your identity, beliefs, values, and perceptions will result in a negative emotional association. When there is a lack of emotional and sexual intelligence, a lack of self awareness and understaning, making a decision like this is detrimental. Two people that are emotionally and sexually intelligent, that understand their true motivators, that are willing to look at their core perceptions, beliefs, and values, and are looking to have a shared experience for the right reasons can absolutely be successful in the swinging lifestyle. As a matter of fact, an overwhelming majority of people in the lifestyle experience a great deal of marital enhancement – connecfion, sexuality, trust, opennes/communication, and happiness.
Frank,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I recognize that some of those in ‘the lifestyle’ find it agreeable with their worldview and value system. They find few problems with what they are choosing to do. They swing and report being Okay with it. If anything, there is sometimes a resentment that others do not approve of what they are doing. They are okay with what they are doing and do not want questions raised about it that may create discomfort. Like the emperor’s new clothes, swingers are content in their world and dislike anyone who dares question what they are doing. I have also seen the unintended consequences that swinging has brought into many families and communities.
For some people the emotions of guilt, shame and remorse are very real. They discover there are consequences to their choices. The emotions are only part of the consequences. You raise the question that these emotions are the result of their set of beliefs, values and perceptions that existed before entering the lifestyle. You may be right. I will need to do more research in that area (the mindset and values of ego-dystonic persons entering the swinging lifestyle). What I do know that that many of the swinging sites provide training and lessons in talking one’s spouse into ‘the lifestyle’. There are pointers on ways of convincing a hesitant spouse on engaging in such activity.
Perhaps such sites give a bad name to swingers. In my mind, taking someone into such activity when it is against their values, beliefs, etc. is coercion and manipulation. If their values are opposed to it, then talking them into it is asking for trouble. I have also seen some spouses take extreme authoritarian positions and ‘order’ their spouse to submit to them in all areas, including forced swinging. In such cases, the whole values thing is turned on its head by a massive disconnect between what is being done and what values are being espoused.
I am intrigued at your comment, “When there is a lack of emotional and sexual intelligence, a lack of self awareness and understanding, making a decision like this is detrimental. Two people that are emotionally and sexually intelligent, that understand their true motivators, that are willing to look at their core perceptions, beliefs, and values, and are looking to have a shared experience for the right reasons can absolutely be successful in the swinging lifestyle.” It is almost as if you are saying that swingers are more ‘enlightened, smarter and more emotionally mature’ than non-swingers. Is this what you were intending to convey? It almost comes across as if swingers are ‘better’ in some ways.
I would agree that the values of swingers are different, yet I do not see them superior such areas as sexual intelligence, emotional maturity or self-awareness. Taking a position of superiority like that becomes one upmanship which makes any kind of meaning dialogue between swingers and non-swingers or ‘vanillas’ as those the lifestyle say.
Just in using the term ‘vanilla’, there is a condescension toward outsiders. The term suggest that swingers view others as ‘plain’ and …boring, with all that goes with such a connotation. When one group views itself as ‘superior’ or more equal, more sexual, more exciting, more whatever, it creates a unhealthy tension between that group and outsiders.
My main goal is helping those couples whose marriages has been impacted by affairs recover. This includes dealing with ex-spouses, swinging, hiring prostitutes and other issues as well. In the case of swingers, there are many questions asked by those who want to get out of the lifestyle or who are being coerced by a spouse into it. I want to help their marriages recover.
I am a child of swingers. It still hurts and I’m almost 50. Sex seems dirty and I’m a man. There was also beastiality and kiddie porn in our house. If sex has become that boring and the line always being pushed why even bother to have sex? It effects me everyday with a depression so deep.
Brian,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I shudder considering what it was like growing up in such a situation. The bestiality and kiddie porn tell me that things were extreme. Your description makes it sound like sex became an animal-like urge rather than an expression of love or being special. It saddens me thinking what a child growing up surrounded by such an experience.
It almost sounds as if you are carrying the pain or guilt for many people. Having had something so beautiful turned into something so banal and animal like removes any kind of specialness and appreciation. What many swingers don’t realize is that giving into the animal side of themselves has a consequence of removing any specialness to being human. It takes existence down to a base level and leaves those affected in an existential tailspin.
Jeff, I will contact you via email I would like to talk more.
Also would like if you could please delete my post as it makes me uncomfortable that it’s so public.
Much appreciated!
Hope to talk soon!
Hey Jeff it looks like you deleted your response to my post but my post is still up.
Jeff, you are a counselor….people come to you WHEN they have problems….just like with drugs, alcohol or depression. The statistics of those who chose to take the plunge into swinging as it fit their desires and their relationship shows that happiness is included if swinging works for you. The study indicates that 78.5% of swinging couples are happy in their marriage compared to 64% of the general married population. Also, happiness seems to grow as well. Of those reported as being “unhappy†before entering the lifestyle, 90.4% claim to be happier swinging. There is no conclusive answer to whether swinging is better than monogamy or vice versa. Some people can embrace swinging because they are naturally open-minded, flexible in viewpoint and adjustable to changing environment. Others cannot handle the jealous feelings that arise and should stay clear of the lifestyle and these are the people you are speaking of. Most problems that arise from “swinging” is that someone doesn’t follow the rules just as in a monogamous relationship…rules are rules. No one should ever be pressured into “swinging” if they are, they are soon too see you.
Just my opinion,
Thank you for sharing your comments. I am not familiar with the study you are referencing, so I don’t have an opinion on it one way or the other. When swingers have come to see me, it has been when there’s been problems. I agree no one should be pressured into “Swinging”. I also believe no one should be coerced, or tricked into it either. Neither should there be pressure or coercion to prevent leaving swinging either.
The answer to whether swinging is better than monogamy often hinges on what you value, how you take your sample, etc. You can find conclusive answers when you compare the two on a particular point. Many of the studies are based on samples taken of samples not fully representative society, which limits the conclusions you can make. The only statistics I found that match your reference were by the ‘rocky mountain parties’ in their FAQ section. The reference was only to percentages without any note of where the statistics came from, who was questioned, or how many people were involved. That limits their usefulness.
As a counselor I also know that illegal drugs and abuse of alcohol often make some people happy. If happiness were the only variable they considered, they would be some of the happiest on earth, yet in terms of other variables, there are some serious problems.
I am at the end of my ropes. We have been married almost 24 years, but have only had we a couple of times in the last 8 or so years. He tells me he doesn’t even think about sex anymore and that when we have tried, my expectations give him performance anxiety.
About 3 months after we married, he brought up swinging, and bought a magazine home that had people in our state who wanted to have sex with other couples and singles. I was horrified and thought he had tired of me so soon, we had a very passionate sex life so this took me completely by surprise. I told him that I couldn’t imagine participating in that no matter what.
About 3 months later, he left me, and my 4yr old son from my previous marriage, to be with a co-workwr that was already involved in an affair with another married man.
He was my dream come true forever love, and when he would come by at various times, I would end up in bed with him, only to hate myself after he went back to her and her 2 children.
This went on for months, I was sick to my stomach all the time, lost way too much weight, couldn’t sleep, so I went to my doctor and he diagnosed anorexia, depression, and anxiety. I started on 25 MG’s of Zoloft, but worked up to 200 mg per day, as well as Xanax 3 times a day.
My husband told me he would leave the girlfriend and be with me if I would agree to an open marriage and swinging.
The first few times I told him I couldn’t do that, but eventually, the pills allowed me to feel less pain and disgust, and I eventually agreed. I can’t believe I ever made someone so important that I was willing to violate my morals in order to be with him, but I really felt I couldn’t live without him.
Worse, I had to “prove” I was serious by sleeping with a stranger before he moved back in.
I participated in this for years, and honestly never enjoyed any of it, but put on an act to please him.
As long as I did what we wanted with couples, with men and women, and he could have sex with whoever he wanted, he treated me like a goddess. I was the most wonderful, most beautiful, sexiest woman alive. When I couldn’t live with it any more, that all started to change.
He would post naked pictures of my online with my face blacked out, and tell me what other men said about me.
He could not climax with me unless I would tell him very detailed “stories” about sex with other people. He even had me film sex with a friend that he watched to turn him on, and pushed me to write detailed accounts of all of my sexual experiences, including those before I met him.
I believe the Zoloft and Xanax allowed me to live with what I was doing, I was so numb I couldn’t shed a tear watching the saddest movie, but I functioned, worked, and we raised 4 children.
Eventually, I decided to get off the drugs, the first couple of tries were unsuccessful, and he would tell me I needed to go back on my “medicine” because I clearly needed it.
Later in our marriage, his idea of us going out for a nice drive meant he would pull up next to trucks or any vehicle where the driver could see down inside and have me expose myself. I felt so much shame, but I did it anyway.
I have been off both drugs for about 7 years now, and all the hurt he caused me has risen to the surface and never been dealt with.
I recently have been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, and this may have played a part in why I was so easily coerced.
He denies that he ever pushed me into swinging, and says that I wanted it as much as he did.
I have been in therapy for a few months now, and even my therapist doesn’t feel that this marriage is salvageable.
My biggest worries are how a divorce would hurt the kids, and how to survive as I have been a stay at home mom for years and now have health problems that will prevent me from providing for us.
My heart is broken, and has been for so long. He asked me one day why sex was so important to me – even though SEX, on his terms, was the main factor in coming back to me.
I am disgusted with myself for going along with it as long as I did, and feel like my life is over. He claims he has ED, and while I know that is a common problem for men, why did it happen at the exact same time that I said I couldn’t do any of that anymore, that I just wanted it to be the 2 of us.
Delila,
Your situation causes my heart to ache. Although some comments left here try making swinging look safe and fun, your real life experience is far from safe or fun. There is just so much, I feel overwhelmed.
The use of photos to keep people in swinging, lure others to swing and for the purpose of humiliation is common. Many swinging sites have such photos. I’ve often wondered how many of them were done willingly, soberly and without remorse.
It doesn’t surprise me that medications were needed to live with ‘the lifestyle., The emotional intensity of such experiences is massive. All those feelings that have been pushed down over the years do eventually come out one way or another.
In many ways what you describe has more in common with a sexual addiction than with just being in ‘the lifestyle’. This is not uncommon. Many addicts find ways of hiding or covering over their issues. The filming, sleeping with strangers and having you share details amounts to vicariously participating. It’s as if he thrives off the sexual excitement of others rather than enjoy it himself.
This is more common that people realize. It often stirs up intense feelings, which they call ‘intimacy’. This is not genuine intimacy. They are confusing intimacy with intensity (I cover this in the Affair Recovery Workshop)
It is understandable that you have many fears.There has been bonding with multiple people, yet never stable relationships that have the security, validation and stability you need.
Although he says he has ED, I have concerns. The biggest sex organ is the mind. My suspicion is that guilt, sex overload and his addictive behaviors are catching up with him. In the days before Viagra, etc. it was known that such issues were often tied into guilt-based concerns. Medications often treat the symptoms without addressing the root cause of intimacy related issues.
The intimacy will need restoration in order to move past any ED issues.
I can understand how you are at the end of your rope. You may want to consider the webinar on overcoming Relationship Trauma for swingers now available.
It’s obvious to me that those whom are supportive of swinging try to rationalize it by false reasoning. I stumbled across this website because my neighbor from the opposite end of the globe, has confided in me the misery of being involved in this destructive lifestyle with her husband. She is near the brink of a mental breakdown because he threatens to divorce her and keep their child, if she does not continue to be involved .
He makes excuses as to why it is “normal” to do it, and he even allows strangers they meet online to come into their home-with the child in the house! I feel totally helpless because he doesn’t know that I’m aware of their problems and her suffering is starting to affect me deeply. My kids play with her child , so I find myself worrying about if I should continue to let them play over there . Obviously, I prefer God the child to come here . They are atheists, although Idk if that makes a difference as to why it was easy for them to get involved. In hindsight , I do believe that he was trying to groom me because he would always bring up topic of sex ; if I knew others with alternative lifestyles , etc. How do I help her?
She fears he’ll take the child with him back to his homeland overseas. He used to be a practicing Muslim . Child is citizen of USA by birth. Dads got dual citizenship, but not the mom. Idk why. I wish I could take her to church but I know she’ll refuse . I feel that God is her only refuge to seek. I feel she confided in me because I don’t judge .
Thank you for your time .
Sorry for typos above.
Jenny,
Thank you for both your concern and writing to me about the situation. There are many in the lifestyle that are living like hostages, such as your friend. At that point, it becomes sex slavery. When you are being forced or coerced into a way of life such as your friend, to me it’s slavery plain and simple. The lifestyle has a way of taking away dignity and turning marital intimacy into another commodity.
As to whether atheism plays a part, I am not sure. What I do know is that maintaining such a lifestyle requires a seared conscience. It sounds like your friend still has a conscience. It does not surprise me that she’s about to have a breakdown. The trauma of being in and out of relationships along with the bondage aspect (e.g. being forced, coerced, etc) take a toll on anyone.
As to you ‘being groomed’, it sounds like you were. The seduction starts with breaking down inhibitions in one area and then exploiting that into others. In some cases, they are doing it intentionally, in others, they are so used to being in the lifestyle, they don’t realize they are doing it. The ‘lifestyle’ culture thrives on consuming and new converts along with the new experiences they bring.
The situation amounts to leaving an abusive relationship. The best guideline I can give is safety first. Once she is safe, then she can start healing from the trauma. Mind you, those in the lifestyle often do not let others leave it easily.
Inviting your friend to church is a good thing if she is willing to go. She will need you to pray for her. The spirit of control/bondage behind the situation will need to be bound before she and her child find freedom.
To just my opinion…those studies are bought by swingers websites. Also there is a problem with such studies, the swinger couples that have split are not part of the study, because they do not swing anymore! I spent a lot of time reading the posting history of couples on swinger websites, and there are common traits(excuse my English I am French) that stand out. Most swinger couples have one the following characteristics: One or both partners are bisexual, one or both partners have only had sex with each other or have a very limited sexual experience, one of the partners has a very low sex drive.
Now regarding the incredible level of communication that swingers say they reach that vanilla couples never attain, they feel their communication is special because they have to talk about topics and discuss boundaries, etc… that vanilla couples will never mention. So swingers feel wow…we can talk about these things, our communication has reached new levels…and then they post that what’s important is that after sex with others they always go home together(I’ve always found that comment so stupid, where else will they go?)what they don’t say is who’s on their mind….also when asked most say that their best lover remains their husband or wife, because they know each other so well….so on one side they talk about very sensitive subjects, brag about being so honest and on the other side they have to be careful not to hurt their partners feelings with lies here and there. Also after the inital period where the lifestyle stimulates the sex at home, slowly, the sexual frequency within the couple diminishes. Some couples do find a balance by being very careful, avoiding high risk activities and maintain a harmonious marriage, but they are the exception. A lot of swinger couples who stay together even though their marriage has become a business agreement, rarely admit that the lifestyle has changed and damaged a marriage originally based on love. Swingers feel ostracized and are very protective of the lifestyle.
Thierry,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments. They show great insight and understanding. The studies often cited by swingers are flawed in many ways. There are many hurts they hold inside. It’s my hope that the blog gives them hope and an avenue to share concerning their struggles. My heart goes out to those who are trapped in a lifestyle they can’t escape. I’d like to give them hope and real options rather than contrived studies and secretive and hidden underground ways of living.
My ex and I of 17 years started swinging about 10 years ago. I only agreed to it to please him. I did not mind it too much till he started treating my married bff and her husband which we swung with like a queen. And all he could talk about was her. I was jealous I admit it but I was sick and tired of hearing about her all the time and how she could do no wrong.
I was treated like a maid and cook and she would not offer any help. I would say hey I can use help here and he would use the excuse that she needs a break as she cooks and cleans for her family. What bothered me was she only has a seasonal part time job and I had 3 jobs one full time one and 2 part time ones. And I was still expected to do everything.
I finally broke it off with him. We are all still friends with the swinging couple but I have since put distance between the three of them as I feel like the 4th wheel. And my ex insists the breakup is harder on her than it is on me. He is so wrong as it still kills me to see how he treats her so nicely and still makes excuses for her. I declined going out camping as they will be going at it and he said that the will only be having sex with her and no one else. Now he told me the she is mad and disappointed because she cannot go now because I am not going. And I told him that the reason is it would be hard on me going while they are there going at it and me having to sleep on the couch which I always did before as I cannot sleep with 2people that snore like crazy.
And he said yet again to me that it’s not hard on me it’s harder on her. Well that is another good reason and makes me happy that I am not going now. Anyhow i do not think it is possible to still be friends and keep my sanity and not be hurt. So I am keeping my distance for now.
Sarah,
Thank you for writing. From your description, it sounded like your ex was grooming your friend. It sounds like he was working overtime in building a net to keep the swinging behavior going. It sounds like he is resorting to guilt tripping in order to manipulate you into staying in the lifestyle. From what you say, it was contrived more than any kind of spontaneous outbreak of desires.
Keeping your distance is well advised. It doesn’t sound like he is putting you first.
Let me first say that I am and always have been a defender of the right to choose, in this case about sex, your sexual orientation, identity and type of activities as long as children are not involved.
What Frank says 0n April 10, 2016 at 11:07, that an overwhelming majority of people in the lifestyle experience a great deal of marital enhancement – connection, sexuality, trust, openness/communication, and happiness, is completely false. Swingers always say those things. They are very defensive about the lifestyle. The few studies that have been done were for most of them, bought by swingers websites or swinger communities. On top of that, swingers that fail but stay together will rarely admit it and the others split up. So when you do a study and go to clubs, blogs or websites the swingers couples who respond are still together and active. You will not find there the swinging couples that split up, they have joined the statistics on failed marriages with no asterisk in the divorce documents saying they were swingers.
If you took a look at couples posting histories on swingers websites where they are members, all over the internet, you will notice that a huge majority of them start all excited, that after the first few encounters they are all saying how their communication has improved, and their sex together, and their marriage, how they love the new friends on the website, congratulate each other on 3somes, gang bangs, solo encounters, etc…and depending on the couple, all of a sudden, them who loved posting sometimes many times a day, after a few months or a few years, they disappear, like there is no more internet in their state or province or country. Pouf! Gone!
I’ve been compiling posting histories on one of the major sites, am at approx. 175 couples (it is very time consuming) and of those maybe 25 are still going and a few of them because of special circumstances (like when the husband sex drive is zero and the wife needs other partners). I’m not finished gathering information but already the statistics clearly show that the success rate, for couples (I am not talking about singles) in swinging is very very low.
Trevor,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and insights. Your comment, “an overwhelming majority of people in the lifestyle experience a great deal of marital enhancement – connection, sexuality, trust, openness/communication, and happiness, is completely false” says a great deal. There is a mental ploy where people say wonderful things about what they are doing in order to avoid being viewed as a fool or having made a poor choice.
The worse they feel about the choice often determines the degree to which they turn around and defend or justify that choice. No one want to even consider that they made a bad choice. Whether swingers or cheaters, it is common that they ‘defend’ their choices in order to avoid any kind of self-condemnation. This is known as a ‘self-serving bias’. Those caught up in it often vehemently defend what they have done as a way of diminishing any ‘buyer’s regret’.
It has often struck me as odd how swingers often invite complete strangers into their most intimate relationship. If they were totally happy and fulfilled, then why bring in the strangers? Why would they need to screen the strangers for compatibility? If they are so happy, they what is the reason for defensiveness or secretiveness? It doesn’t make sense on several levels.
If it’s such a wonderful way of life, then why are so many spouses taking pills or using alcohol to cope with it?
Swingers as a group have some unique needs. Their minds have been rewired through their experiences. That’s why I developed the “Affair Trauma for Swingers” webinar. They are so used to intense experiences, its often hard to shift into a lower gear. The lifestyle brings intensity and high-octane excitement, but a healthy marriage needs more than those traits. It needs commitment, trust and loyalty. The lifestyle versions of commitment, trust and loyalty are often counter-productive from what is needed for a long-term healthy marriage.
My last marriage ended due to multiple reasons. I made the decision to get out. A year before it ended my ex husband kept on pushing swinging in me. We explored the lifestyle a little and then it became all consuming. I was craving attention from him and I kind of got it in the form of communicating. The communication centered around the swinging lifestyle.
He and I joined a online group looking for couples to swap with. Often times he would find the wife attractive but I would not like the male half..or the other way around. I felt as if all our time together was consumed with the lifestyle. Looking online, talking about it. He was constantly sending me pictures of couples he was scouting out for “us” . Sex with each other was not the same.
He would start getting angry when I didn’t like a couple and would claim I was too picky. When we did have sex I never felt like I was fist choice anymore. I felt as if I was an outlet and a way to satisfy himself because he did not get what he really wanted.
He wound up cheating on me with a woman that was not in the lifestyle and very vanilla. She knew nothing about him being married. We tied to reconcile the marriage but a year later I got the courage to ask for a divorce. I was not willing anymore to settle for anything less than being first choice.
I know many “happy swingers” but I would tell other to proceed with caution. Make sure that the lifestyle is not glossing over the pull of you or your partner to actually cheat, sex addiction etc.
I am now in a relationship with a wonderful man and we are getting married. We have discussed the topic of swinging. He has no desire to share me with anybody.
Sorry folks but maybe I am a bit old fashioned. There is something very special about the bond of only being with each other. I believe that the sexual relationship you have with your partner is something sacred.
L,
Thank you for sharing your insights and experience. I concur, there is something very special about the bond of only being with each other and the sacredness of such an experience.
Your advice to proceed with caution is sound. There are many potential dangers. The intense experience is often used in hiding many other issues, like sexual addiction, cheating, etc. There is always an initial adrenaline rush with extreme living. The danger lies in what people do in order to maintain that rush of adrenaline. In many cases, it involves getting more and more extreme. I often think of it as a spiral where you have to do something more extreme to keep the thrill and cover the guilt from the last extreme behavior.
The spiral keeps getting larger and larger rather than settling down. It easily turns into an addictive lifestyle where you have to keep seeking bigger and bigger thrills. That does not make for a stable marriage relationship or lifestyle.
The intense experience has an addictive component. Your brain and emotions acclimate to the high intensity, which makes it hard ‘coming down down’ to non-swinger living. It also makes it hard maintaining the adrenaline driven lifestyle. This is why I put together the ‘Affair Trauma for Swingers’ video to deal with this phenomena.
I just want to thank all of you guys for the comments
You have really helped me much in my decision. Being Christian it really pulled at me.My husband has now just brought it up and I’m very uncomfortable about it.Im very very sexual and can do anything with him only.So the question of having other ppl included makes me uneasy and these are points I did bring to him.We need to think of our marriage and kids.Sins of the parents story…..Can we survive the consequences cause I know how we are this will consume us terribly and I’m not prepared to lose my marriage for this.So thank you all for making me see exactly what I knew could be the consequences. This would just ruin our good marriage.Thank you
Roxy,
Thank you for your encouraging words. Having other people being part of your sex life changes the dynamics and feelings. One of the paradoxes of relationships is that there is greater intimacy within constrains (limits of marriage) than with a variety of experiences. Confusing intimacy with intensity or variety is a mistake that many people make.
In terms of your question, “Can we survive the consequences?” is important to consider. First, there will be consequences. Once that special bond between you and your spouse is broken, it will never be the same. Sleeping with others will change you, your spouse and your marriage. Nothing will be the same any more. Your marriage can survive, yet it will not be the same it was before.
In asking the question, can we survive, the assumption is that you will make the choice and you’re considering damage control. Perhaps you need to ask “What is the best choice for our marriage?” or “Will this improve our special and unique relationship?” In answering the question consider it now, in five years, in 20 years and in terms of future generations. When you consider the BIG picture it helps you make better choices.
The ‘sins of the parents’ story is only part of what needs to be considered. You also have to consider ‘sowing and reaping’ and God’s design and purpose for marriage. When you only consider portions of the theology involved, it can result in confusion.
There is certainly strong feelings and sensuality that comes with swinging. The excitement often lures couples into the lifestyle. This often leads to making choices based on short term excitement rather than the long term consequences.
The fun times with other couples will bring more secrets, jealousy and other factors. What will you do when your spouse wants to swing with people you don’t like, or with people that aren’t as clean as ya’ll are or when he wants to bring home complete strangers from Craigslist? How will you cope and explain it to your children?
Things will spiral.
Everyone you have relations with, you will bond with. That bonding will impact you. It’s not just a handshake or social greeting. There is something much deeper than that. Consider this when posing and answering your questions.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I never been to any swinger events. But the woman I been married to has before we even met. She sometimes send me info of swinger events from one of her friends or from an host that is having a event. I am not into that lifestyle. And I am wondering if this gonna cause a problem in our relationship. If I was to see another man having sex with her I would probably kill myself.
Uncomfortable,
Thank you for writing with your concerns. You are wise in considering how you would may react. Seeing someone else enjoying your wife in a way that was meant for you only to enjoy can trigger strong reactions. Some men don’t see that relationship in those terms. They have no problem sharing their wives with others.
This is one reason why some swingers have relations in separate rooms. Those walls that keep you from seeing what is going on don’t prevent what’s going on. Just because you don’t see it, does little to pacify the strong feelings that are aroused in terms of your reactions. I often call it ‘justified jealousy’. Although jealousy is often given a bad reputation, this is one time when it is not only justified, it is a natural reaction. As humans we are not wired for such behavior. Seeing your wife with another man will trigger jealous reactions. You can try masking or hiding/covering over those reactions, but they will be there, they will burn and they will not go away.
Many of the emails I receive privately convey how others have used drugs and wild sex which cover them for a while, yet eventually the feelings do come out and its not pretty. The anger is real, the jealousy is real and are not ever pacified once aroused.
She may have enjoyed many of the social benefits of the life she has had. She may not want to view it as ‘bad’ or ‘unhealthy’. Viewing it that way may trigger some reactions in her. You may want to instead focus on having a special relationship between the two of you and your unwillingness to mess that up with swinging. Telling her that you can’t bring yourself to sharing something so special with others because it means so much to you will be a healthier and less conflictual way of framing it to her.
Regards,
Jeff
My partner of 2 1/2 years posted a profile of us on a swinger website and kept it a secret from me for nearly 3 months. He was acting strangely and it was as if our great relationship had started to take this weird turn. (When we first met, he shared that he had dabbled in this lifestyle briefly, however, he termed it as a “phase” and was apparently done with it, finding he needed more than just sex for sport.) Apparently, not a phase! Long story short, I did an educational experiment, posted my own profile, got 2 dozen responses in one day, and that’s when I got him to admit it. (then I immediately deleted my “fake” account.)
May I point out, for sake of clarity, that I am not a swinger, nor do I wish to be.
We have an otherwise very happy relationship, together for 2 1/2 years, living together for 2 years, both divorced after long, unhappy marriages, and have children of our own from those marriages and support each other in the raising of those children actively. We wear promise rings as a sign of our commitment to our relationship.
I can tell you that since finding out about the swinger profile in February of this year, I have been less happy in our relationship, less confident, less “vulnerable” – and actually angry that he didn’t talk to me about this before he put it up. Not that I would have agreed. I am getting to the point where I will actually insist that the profile be taken down, and can also do that myself right now if I wanted to. But I figured, he’d just put up another one, so what’s the point?
I currently know the user name, password, I see (and respond) to different people, took an active role in posting appropriate pictures and edited the profile several times to include MY wishes, not just his. We (he) are wanting to meet other couple socially first, and only be with our partners – absolutely no swapping. I looked through bookmarks, and trashed 2/3rds of them. However, I can honestly tell you I HATE IT and am only entertaining his need to be on there by being reluctantly compliant. He knows this. We actually had a big talk yesterday about it and he certainly doesn’t want to make me unhappy or uncomfortable.
The bottom line, for me, is this: I will not share, and I don’t want to be shared. Whether you are a man or a woman, you must make it known, clearly, your feelings on the subject. I gave him (rather, myself) my word that I wouldn’t put myself in an uncomfortable position and that I would certainly hope that he respect me enough to do the same. And I suppose that’s why I’m “letting him” keep our profile up there and trying to be a good sport about it.
Though I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s changing me, I will say it is changing my intimacy level with him emotionally, even sexually sometimes. I have to be very careful to keep my resentment about this in check. What I will expound on is, sexually we are the same as ever, there’s not really been a drop, but for me, I am not as, oh, “open” emotionally during sex I guess, and my mind is elsewhere wondering if I am satisying him enough. Even though it’s stupid to even think this, because I am hot, have a great body, and sexually uninhibited with him. I find that I am experiencing trust issues. I find that I am dealing with anxiety and mild depression over it, whereas before, I wasn’t dealing with these things at all.
The important thing is keep talking about it, no matter how hard it may be. Ladies, you have every right to tell your man, NO. If you don’t respect yourself enough to do that, why should he? Men, same for you. If this is a deal breaker, ask yourself if this person is really worth your time, because clearly, they care more about their own needs than yours.
In my “researach” of people on this site, I have learned SOOOOOOOOO much. There are some couples that really enjoy this lifestyle. And hey, more power to them if EVERYBODY is happy about doing it.
As for me, I have skewed the profile to my advantage. I won’t have sex with another man because it will turn mine on to see me do that. Why? Because it’s not what I want. Men, you might want to ask your wife or SO what she wants and stop making this about you. Ladies, if your man wants to watch you with another man, you have every right to say “NO”. However, if YOU want to sex it up with another man, go for it.
This is the funny thing. This site posts alot of raunchy, slutty pictures of the women (nice eye candy for the guy I guess, but don’t look very classy to me), but when it comes to the guys, hardly any. What’s up with that? HA! I told my man that any profiles that do not have reasonable pictures of the man in the couple do not deserve a response, and if it was all women pictures, forget it. Not into it.
Yes, there is a dark side to swinging, no matter how people slice it, dice it, defend it or justify it.
Swinging, in a nutshell, allows for non-monogamy. Simple as that. If you are all for non-monogamy, go for it. If not, hold your ground.
Hold Your Ground,
Thank you for sharing your experience. Your closing, “Yes, there is a dark side to swinging, no matter how people slice it, dice it, defend it or justify it.
Swinging, in a nutshell, allows for non-monogamy. Simple as that. If you are all for non-monogamy, go for it. If not, hold your ground.” makes your point clear. In my thinking, your conclusion is ‘spot on’, although I don’t encourage others to go for non-monogamy.
I often wish MORE people did their own research, especially when it comes to something as personal and consuming as swinging. A questioning mind is one that is not easily manipulated.
I have to admit, I’ve not heard of using the “phase” angle on swinging before. It’s certainly creative and semi-hides the true intent. When I see the word ‘phase’ it registers in my mind as one more stage in a process. The process involving swinging definitely leads to darker places such as anonymous hook-ups, human trafficking, etc. depending on which dark path their journey takes them.
Even in your situation, with setting up fake profiles, using the ads for social purposes with sexual intent, calling the ‘lifestyle’ a phase suggests trickery and ulterior motives.
Putting up the fake profiles without your awareness or permission struck me as if you were being displayed and advertised for a meat market. I had to re-read that part several times to make sure what I just read. Although I’d like to say I’ve never heard of such before, that’s not the case. In the lifestyle, ads, photos and videos are often shared without permission. This practice strikes me as ‘invasive’ and exploitative. In some ways, such sharing amounts to a vicarious ‘swapping’. Its just that in this case, someone is swapping photos of their spouse rather than baseball cards.
The fantasies people generate about the photos starts a type of swapping in their mind. This becomes important, in that when the meet-up occurs, those who are weak minded are easier to overwhelm with the pre-determined seduction that has already occurred in someone’s mind. At the meet-up they just act out what they have already scripted and rehearsed in their head. Just imagine a passive wife being introduced after a couple of drinks to a determined couple who’ve already planned out her seduction.
I appreciate you speaking out. I wish you the best in your relationship.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Hi Jeff:
Thank you for your response. To clarify, the profile my partner put up is not fake. The one I created as an experiment was, to an extent. I had no pictures up there and the response in just a day was mind-boggling. Almost a dozen men had contacted me, some more than once, ready and willing to get busy at the drop of a hat. I had phone numbers and everything. I didn’t reply to any. (They are all probably wondering what the hell happened to me when the profile came down, lol!) I told my partner about it and said I created the account because I suspected he had a profile up of us and was trying to find it. He readily admitted to me that he did, so I point blank asked to see it. I knew there was something he wasn’t telling me. This was around the same time that I became aware that his porn use had increased, so as you know, all these things go hand in hand and the woman is left traumatized by facing these realities, such as where I am at now. Not fun.
Concerning the current profile of “us”, there are no nude pictures on there. If there had been, heads would have rolled! I have made it very clear my wishes if the profile is to stay up. I am taking control of a potentially damaging situation, in otherwords. If he wants the profile to stay up, there are rules: No nude pictures exchanged, no phone numbers, communicate only via the website until we agree to meet socially – and I have veto power. I found suitable clothed pictures, cropped out faces of both of us and significantly changed the profile to read that people interested in or expecting to “Swap” had no chance and a first meeting doesn’t equal we are DTF. And if that’s what people were wanting, move on. I just delete their emails poste haste if that is the case, they don’t deserve our response or even a courtesy of one if they can’t read the specifics in our profile. My partner is totally fine with all the changes I made, agrees with them, and if that profile is going to stay up there, it better reflect and operate according to what I want as well: No swapping – and you play with your own partner, not mine. If the people we meet can’t or won’t respect that boundary, including my partner, it’s bye-bye. The initial meeting will not include any kind of playing, if ever. He understands that, excepts that, and again last night told me he doesn’t want to jeopardize what we have. So I replied that if this is true, he will make decisions accordingly.
I realize I have the upper hand here, and if even one man or woman is helped by my story, this thread has served it’s purpose. Reading what other people have been dealing with has enlightened me. Neither party should force the issue of swinging on the other, and neither party should feel compelled to behave in a manner that makes them feel uncomfortable.
This whole swinger profile business is one I truly wish I wasn’t dealing with and a “dark side” all on its own. But, I decided I could do one of 2 things, 1) freak out, or 2) approach it deliberately and work this to my advantage. The goal being for my partner and I to come out the other side of this stronger as a couple without sacrificing our needs, wants, morals – and him hopefully realizing that what we have is far too valuable to ruin with, excuse my french, shit like this.
Last night in further discussion with him about various topics, I shared with him that, for me, fantasies are just that – not real. And if I don’t get some of my erotic fantasies fulfilled, I’m not going to be unhappy or feel I’ve missed out on life or pine away from not having that experience. I won’t be on my deathbed saying “wow, I really regret not having a threesome when I had the chance”.
As for monogamy, we discussed that in our younger years, before marriage (he is 49 and I am 52), or when dating non-exclusively and having casual sex with multiple partners, that is the time to sow those wild oats and “polgamy” is just fine for because both parties choose it. But – when a person meets someone and makes a decision to choose that person only, wether marriage or an LTR, monogamy kicks in unless both have agreed to an open relationship and both are equally fine with this arrangement.
I believe in monogamy and won’t have it any other way when I am in a relationship. People on swinger sites clearly do not want monogamy and the sites help them hook up left and right because someone is always willing.
Thanks again for commenting on my post and sharing your professional insights!
Hold Your Ground,
I had never even thought about the swinger profile business. I suspect that there is a great deal of people presenting their avatar rather than an accurate representation of who they are. Although I have not combed through the personal ads, I suspect that not all of them are done willingly. I also suspect that many of the photos were taken when the person was “under the influence”. There is also a exhibitionist element to the whole scene as well.
It takes the saying “judging a book by its cover” to a new level. I know that photos in the men’s magazines contain large amounts of airbrushing and photoshopping. Since the image is what sells the person, the fudge factor is likely high. The content is also important, so I suspect that some people put a lot of thought into the copy they include.
My advisor at the University specialized in photo-therapy. If I applied what I learned to the personal ads, it would likely be quite an eye-opening experience.
Thank you for sharing,
Jeff
WOW…… this was so helpful and informative. You are very good at what you do! My husband and I are not swingers in any sense of the word; true Christians do not fornicate….not that they don’t make these mistakes and repent (but they certainly do not make it a practice) . I came across this when I was looking for ‘the dark side of swinging’ for the purpose of seeing what happens when a person goes against Bible laws and principles in the Christian Greek scriptures. I have a very strong interest in understanding what TRULY happens when people do not follow laws and principles given to us by our Creator. It’s true there will always be those that will thumb their noses at His guidelines and love it…. no one can help such people since they are not righteously disposed…. unless they want to change. Thank you so very much for this post because it solidifies the principle ‘you reap what you sow’. Just for clarification and stopping the spread of untruths, Adam and Eve ate a fruit of some kind….not an ‘apple’….the Bible does not say what kind of fruit it was. The ‘apple’ was penned by a famous poet a long time ago and it just stuck with people…(I was an English major). Again, thank you so very much for this post and I am sure that if anyone finds it will find it very helpful to seriously consider whether to walk or not to walk down that deep dark path. There are a plethora of bad advice out there for just about anything, but your post have very good advice on relationships. Thank you so very much. Please keep your post up and GOOD JOB!
T,
Thank you for your encouraging words. Anyone can fall victim to ‘the lifestyle’, whether by coercion, accident or curiosity. The allure tricks many, including Christians into a trap that’s hard to escape from. Swinging is not an easy situation to leave.
Although I am aware of the consequences and what happens when Scriptural laws and principles are violated, I toned things down for the readers for various reasons. My hope is that they will find hope rather than wrestle with hopelessness. I wanted to encourage them out of the lifestyle rather than condemn for those choices. I know that many fall into the lifestyle unaware of the potential dangers and traps. It’s often viewed as a shiny object that promises what it can’t deliver.
I’ve also seen a predatory element in some of the lifestyle situations I’ve worked with, where one spouse is essentially pimping out the other and exploiting them. Over time it becomes an odd relationship where one exploits and the other develops a taste for being exploited. It would take too long to get into it.
I enjoyed the apple story.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Last night my husband of 15 years blindsided me. After taking me out on a date, when we got back to the car he brought up that he wanted to talk about sex, and was proposing a compromise by having sex at the same time as another couple. He suggested that we just try it over the internet, like a web cam experience where they watch us, and we watch them. And then maybe try this in person. He has been on me about downloading the kik app. lately, now I know why, and he has already gone behind my back and opened an account on feeld. This, I guess he considers to be a compromise from full blown swinging, and that’s how he broached the subject. I feel like I’m going to throw up. I feel really bad, because I thought we had a great relationship and sex life (frequent, intimate, special, we have a family together, and I really loved him). I don’t know what to do.
Sarah,
Thank you for writing to me. You were definitely blindsided. In terms of compromise, it doesn’t sound like much of one. it sounds more like he is proposing “swinging lite”. He is still bringing strangers into your sex life, operating as a small-time pornographer (where he shows off your sex acts to others) and also putting you into a position of consuming pornography along with becoming more voyeuristic. It sounds like he has plans and has already mapped out the path for the two of you to enter ‘the lifestyle’. He’s not compromising, he’s softening you up for swinging.
I’m puzzled about you saying your feeling ‘really bad’. You’ve done nothing wrong, other than not give into his plan to get you into swinging and thereby destroying the special intimacy the two of you share.
Once the special intimacy is open for others, it’ll never be the same or special. Instead you’ll just be another porn video for someone to use in getting turned on. Your marriage changes from a special relationship to a commodity for consumption by others.
With him already going behind your back, it tells me that there are trust issues. He’s not totally honest with you about his plans or activities. If he’s already being sneaky BEFORE swinging, it’s only going to get worse after swinging.
I can understand how you would be confused. You love him and want to please him. Yet, he is taking your marriage in a destructive direction that is hard to return from.
I suspect that he is likely consuming some porn or being influenced by someone. There may even be an underlying sexual addiction issue needing attention. If caught early enough, it doesn’t have to get out of control.
In terms of what to do…I think getting the trust issues settled is the best place to start. Him going behind your back and not being totally forthright in downloading apps and so forth tells me that he is not being 100% honest with you about what he’s doing. I suspect he’s not honest about his needs and he is certainly not considering your needs.
As you feel like you are going to throw up (which is a common reaction to such situations), he’s already mapped out his plan for getting you into swinging. THAT doesn’t sound like he is considering your needs for security, exclusivity and love ahead of his own desires to pleasure himself. He should find his delight in you rather than some random couple on the web cam. He married you, not the floozie on the camera side of the web cam.
Best Regards,
Jeff
It’s been a year since I left my ex (17 years together). I do not feel like ever dating again.And i am quite happy on my own now. So my ex and the couple we swung with are still friends. The husband on the other couples side had prostate cancer and allows his wife to still swing with my ex. My ex went threw a bout of cancer as well but they were able to keep some of the nerves in his prostate so he is still able to perform. When he came back from his surgery he told me that he would only be having sex with the other woman and not me. We were still together at this time. Why would you say this too your wife. Anyhow we are no longer together which is good. I still go out camping but if I go out I get the couch and they get the bed. My ex invites me but says you know the sleeping arrangements. Her husband knows about this and gives her his consent to go.
Anyhow swinging does work for some people I know a few couples and they are still going strong, but it did not work for me. The reason being is he and she fell in love. Her husband is not nice to her and my ex was not nice to me so they deserve each other. They are just waiting to get together as her husband’s health is not well. I know this because he told me that he and she talked about it. Oh well, some advice for people considering it please really think about it And make sure that you have a really strong relationship. And do not make your partner pressure you into doing it the way mine did. Take care and be safe.
Sarah,
Thank you for sharing your experience. Your advice of “Please really think about it and make sure you have a really strong relationship. And do not make your partner pressure you into doing it…” is about as clear as it could be.
Your question, “Why would you say this too your wife?” is poignant. This is one of the dangers of the bonding that occurs with swinging. Attachments form which can become stronger than the marriage bond. This is a very real and serious danger couples face.
Thank you again,
Jeff
Thank you for the kind words Jeff. Yet the ex and his girlfriend(that is what I call her) still expect everything to stay the same as it was before. We are not best friends anymore and they cannot understand why I get angry with them. I can make a pot of coffee the two of them will drink the whole pot. I will then go to have a cup of coffee as I do not drink a coffee straight away when first getting up, and all I get is if you want a coffee make your own. So I try not to have much to do with them or as little as possible and I am the one with the problem. Anyhow enough of my ramblings please make sure there are rules and guidelines to follow and make sure that they are followed as there are consequences.
Sarah,
The lack of consideration you’ve been shown is appalling. I can understand being hurt and upset about it. It’s as if your feelings are no longer considered. You’ve been treated more like an object that’s used and discarded than a person. That’s been one of my concerns with the swinging lifestyle with how it starts people going down a slippery slope to being objects more than people.
I suppose that if the rules and guidelines were followed, there would be fewer problems. I also suspect that there are some spouses who abide by rules, guidelines and agreements. Many of the swingers I’ve dealt with have problems following rules. They don’t like coloring within the lines so to speak. They find ways of testing limits and pushing the edge of the envelope, which creates instability in their relationships.
I am curious about your mentioning of ‘consequences’. Is there a reason for having consequences rather than something not being allowed? The problem with ‘consequences’ is that those people who test limits, view consequences not as a deterrent, but rather as part of the price tag for them to ‘pay to play’. Rather than something being ‘off limits’, they view it as the price of admission.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Consequences being I refused to continue in the lifestyle and he continued on his own regardless of what I said. And the other consequence was a broken family as I left him. He thinks that we had a good life together, even though he treated me like crap. Now he has to take care of everything himself in the household work wise as I did everything for him when we were together. That included the yard work as well. Now he complains he doesn’t have time to do all the house cleaning yet I had no problem doing it myself along with some of the yard work. Now he knows what I had to do and I have no pity for him at all. He never realised all I did for him. And he has less time to play now as he calls it.(swinging that is)
Sarah,
There were definitely some consequences in your life. A broken family, ruined marriage, and bitter feelings as a final outcome of his persisting in swinging is quite a price tag. Your description makes it sound like he treated you more like an object or slave than a wife. (This is one of the potential dangers of ‘the lifestyle’: the objectification of wives). There is definitely not much cherishing or consideration going on there. With his disregard of you not wanting to continue the lifestyle, it sounds like you had very few options.
In his mind, he probably does think that you both had a good life together. Men often think that based on how well they provided financially. Many husbands are oblivious to the emotional and relational needs of their wives. They are oblivious to the needs for feeling secure and special. He probably doesn’t realize what you sacrificed for him, along with how much you loved him and poured yourself into his life.
I suspect that he worked hard and felt deserving of play time, yet he ignored the emotional needs in his own marriage. I admire your courage in taking action the way you have.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I just found this website. Wish I had known of its existence a few years back now.
So I am now singele, divorced. The key issue?. Sex, specifically “variety” as my ex said. So he was always pushing for the next thing. Firstly it was photos. Then it became photos and joining an online exhibitionist website. Then I found out he was cruising a swinging website. Everytime, he would keep pushing for me. I would find us in circumstances with people we knew who were involved in this and then, through sheer nervousness, I would get horribly drunk. As a result, one night, we crossed the line. I was almost suicidal. I was disgusted wtih myself and needed comforting. He was furious because i was feeling so upset about it. So he kept pushing and so I gave in (where have we heard this before?)!
It just got more extreme and to the point where, when he mentioned a mini break or weekend somewhere, I would feel sick because I never knew if it meant a romantic weekend or trip or one of “those” trips. It didnt matter how far I went, it would never be enough. It began to tear me apart. I became depressed, I began to self harm. I would cry and beg him not to ask this of me but then he would say we clearly needed to get divorced and would ignore me. So i would give in. Then, one day, God seemed to give me the stresngth to say no. He said we were over. I went through 5 days of silent treatment and then he said sorry and that he couldnt end it. We staggered on for another 8 months when I found out he was having an affair. After giving him all he had asked, it wasnt enough. He was angry I had stopped so he took up with another woman, ended our marriage, was very controlling and cruel. This woman doesnt do this kinda thing but he told me it was his full intention to ask her to get involved and he believed she would. I went through such self-loathing, not to mention guilt, shame and not being able to talk to anyone about the real reason we divorced and I tried to commit suicide many times and carved such deep scores into my body because I hated it.
Now I am healed, having been through professional therapy and also Christian counselling, I am strong in my faith again, I no longer self harm, no longer trying to killl myself and I want to work with people who are going what I have gone through. I want to let people know they are not alone, for those who are being manipulated by partners and are ready to destroy themselves because of the way it destroys your self esteem. I love my life now, I am happy but I had to walk a very dark and hard path before I got to this point. God has been so good to me. I know there are others in this position and I want to help them. I am so glad you are doing so thorough this, Jeff. God bless you for doing this. There is such a great need. Christians and non-Christians alike battle this. In all instances, there is no-one to go to to speak about it because of the intense shame. I didnt for years until the last 2 years. I had to learn to trust all over again because it was so throughly broken. Its a form of sexual abuse when one is coercing the other.
Thanks again Jeff. Everyone, there is freedom, there is help. I found it. Keep looking. Jeff can help so hold to that.
Carol,
Thank you for writing. I’ve had to read and re-read your comments several times. Your story is a powerful one that touches me deeply. For years, I have sensed a need for reaching those who feel like they are captives. The strong sense of wanting them to have freedom once again has been a burning desire within me. Hearing your story gives me encouragement. It breaks my heart hearing how extreme things became in your life, yet it gives me hope hearing how you have a new found freedom. It does my heart good hearing of how you came out.
The scars from such an experience are deep. They touch your soul rather than just your body. I am so glad that you have a new found dignity.
Things can get very dark with ‘the lifestyle’. The deceit in always pushing people beyond what they feel comfortable with and manipulating them into deeper and darker things is exploitative. The deception grates on me. It’s not a matter of what you see is what you get. It’s more like the iceburg. What you see is far different from how deep things really go. In some cases, it’s the spouses making merchandise out of their partners, in other cases it’s the swinger community exploiting other people’s marriages or the rich exploiting the poor.
The injustice and deception of the whole situation gets my blood boiling. You can understand since you have been one of those caught up in the whole mess. Getting out is not easy. I’m proud of what you did.
I m sure that not being able to talk honestly about what was going on was quite a burden. It’s hard getting things off your chest when you can’t talk openly and honestly about it at church or otherwise. It’s tragic that so many are caught in this web.
Shame and self-loathing make a powerful cage. It’s my hope that those caught in that cage find freedom.
What I have seen is dark enough to scare me. It’s troubling that things get even darker than I can imagine. I hope you find ways of helping those caught in the dark side of swinging. Many times all it takes is a heart willing to help others find a way out. God uses those who are willing more than those who ‘have knowledge or understanding of all the nitty gritty details’.
I wish you well. I am glad that our paths crossed. If you ever wish to talk feel free to email me privately at Jeff@RestoreTheFamily.com
Best Regards,
Jeff
Hi there
I have just ended a three year relationship with a man who was (still is) a swinger. When I met him, I knew he was swinging, but he talked about the loneliness of being a single male in that lifestyle.
He played mostly with couples and said he would feel hollow and lonely when he went to bed usual in another room and the couple he had played with snuggled up together in their bed. He eventually persuaded me to have a relationship with him, that he wanted to give the lifestyle up and have a proper relationship.
Six months in I found he had met several women he used to play with and had subsequently played again. I ended the relationship….heartbroken, he promised he would never do it again and that they had persuaded him, at a weak and bored moment. He said he had severed all ties with them. I believed him and took him back.
On more than one occasion I suspected he was lying about certain things, acting suspiciously. Yep he had strayed again! Long story short I have forgiven him more times than I really should have. But I love and adore him so much, he makes me feel loved and so special which is why I have repeatedly forgiven him.
“It’s just sex” he says, they mean nothing to me. You are the best thing that has ever happened in my life and I don’t want to lose you. He has created a monster! I am jealous, insecure and constantly thinking he is lying and cheating on me.
Last weekend I found photos and texts on his phone and lost it and ended the relationship again. I feel stronger this time, more so than ever before, I want so desperately to get him out of my life for good because I know the trust will never come back regardless of his promises.
I will always be paranoid and insecure and I know he is no good for me. Part of me wants to believe he will one day stop cheating, stop swinging and finally be faithful to me. I guess what I need to know is, is this possible or is he so addicted all I am doing Is lining myself up for even greater heartache, more years of deception as he can’t break away. Do I finally give up on him?
Sally,
Thank you for writing. It’s clear that you are torn in your feelings about him. Anytime you get close, there is a risk of emotional involvement. He can say “It’s just sex” all day long, like it’s ‘no big deal’ (as if it were as common as a handshake) yet the reality is that for him, sex is VERY important. His life revolves around sex and playing in the lifestyle.
One of the challenges of swinging is that it puts you in an unnatural situation. With him sleeping around, you feel the jealously and insecurity. Those feelings have you feeling like something is wrong with you. In reality it’s the unnatural aspect and the bonding that occurs in swinging. that has you feeling like you are living in two different worlds.
You aren’t a monster. The ‘monster’ feelings are natural reactions that happen with bonding. His secrecy and cheating have fueled your insecurities even more. He has not shown a serious commitment to you in terms of complete loyalty. Without that kind of commitment, you’ll have some of what you call the ‘monster feelings’.
Just this past weekend, there was an incident in Maine where a swinger wife lost it and began trying to run over her husband and hit him with a screwdriver. http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2017/09/swingers_party_goes_bad_when_j.html.
These things happen. The intensity of emotions are real.
Your question, “is this possible for him to stop cheating or is he so addicted…” His actions show that he’s not willing to stop playing or cheating. He is showing no intention of stopping. His heart is in the swinging. It is possible to be addicted. Some sex addicts hide their addiction in their swinging. They are denying the addiction component of their behavior.
I always believe it’s possible for people to change. He could change, yet I see little motivation to do so. In terms of “Do I finally give up on him?”…I say yes. You may want to ask yourself, “Is it a healthy relationship?” You’ve already had a sample of his lying. In all likelihood, you’ll get more of the same if you stay with him.
The key to him changing is when he changes his behavior and his thinking. As long as he has the ‘it’s just sex’ attitude, it’s only going to be a matter of time before he’s playing again.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Jeff,
My husband and I have been married for 33 years. My husband apparently just came across a swing site, started checking it out and talked me into giving it a try. That was 15 years ago. I haven’t been happy for 10 years. I feel like he is consumed with trying to line up fun with other couples. I want him to be just as consumed with lining up fun for just the two of us. When he is with other women he gets really into passionate kissing and making it a very passionate experience. I want him to be that passionate with me. When we have sex it is great and he still to this day tells me I am the best. I actually do believe he feels that way as far as the acts of sex. However, I think the excitement of other women is more of a turn on for him. He loves the excitement of flirting, sexting and having hot sex with other women. I can’t really blame him for that. It is most guys fantasy. What eats away at me daily is that I want him to love flirting with me too. I wish he put as much energy into making me want him as he does his girlfriends. If he had his way we would play with couples every weekend. Sometimes when he is bummed that he can’t line anything up I will tell him that I am sorry he is stuck with just me. He gets really mad at me for saying that but it is exactly how I feel. I try to explain my feelings to him but he just doesn’t get it. I also feel that being in this lifestyle makes it harder for me to trust him to be faithful. He travels a lot for his job and I constantly worry that he will hook up with someone while he is gone. I would be very happy to give up the lifestyle if I knew he could still be happy but I don’t think that would be the case. My advise to people is to not do it. It is to big of a risk of either you or your partner not being happy in the long run. One of you will eventually want out and the other one will think it is not fair for you to make them give up the fun. Yes, my husband said that when I mentioned wanting to take a break. My husband and his girlfriends are on my mind 24/7 I can’t shut it off and it is killing me. He gets mad when I try to talk to him about it. I know he loves me and I love him so I always end up apologizing for feeling the way I do. I put a smile on my face and continue to live in hell. 🙁
Dear Sad. Every. Day,
Your experience is greivious. You lost some of the best parts of your relationship with your husband with swinging. Men get passionate about where there heart is at. From what you describe, it sounds like his heart is with the excitement of the new. The drive to find something new is powerful.
The drive of seeking new stimulation and damage to bonding are two of the hidden dangers in swinging. There is a thrill about new adventures, yet it comes with a price. There’s a price tag that comes with multiple partners and relationships. Part of the price tag is loss of security and peace of mind. It pained me hearing about how you struggle with this.
The sadness is not all in your mind. It is biological as well. After the extreme highs, the crashes come. The more intense the high, the greater the crash afterwards. This is another part of the swinger price tag. It’s not by accident that many of those who have been in the lifestyle for a while are on meds or heavy drinkers.
Thank you for sharing what happened along with your warning. The reality of things not being fair is a very real and challenging obstacle. The racing thoughts don’t turn off easily.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Jeff,
Thank you for this post, it’s been very helpful.
I’m dealing with the after effects of a swinging relationship, not mine but my girlfriends. She is 60 and I am 59, we’ve been dating for 1 1/2 years. She was married for 16 years (divorced now for 13 years).
When we met she told me her marriage ended because her husband was cheating on her. He had no intention of stopping, he said it was just sex and that he loved her. However what I learned a few months ago is that they had been swingers.
I found out about it and brought forth my concerns. Learning that she had been a swinger played upon my insecurities that one man (me) might not be enough for her. That she enjoyed the “lifestyle” and was excited by sex with other men.
She was extremely embarrassed that I had learned the truth. She said it was the worst period of her life. Her husband gott her into the lifestyle, saying that it was the only way to save their marriage. I don’t know how long they were in the lifestyle but at some point she told me she no longer wanted to be a part of it. She said her husband became angry and distant. He did not want to stop and actually continued to see a woman he met in the lifestyle.
She tried very hard to save her marriage and dealt with much heartache as he continued to see the other woman all the while saying that it was her (my girlfriend) that he loved and that this was just sex.
It became clear that her marriage was over and she got out of it. But she was devastated by the betrayal she felt, and also at how she felt about herself…allowing herself to betray her own principals (monogamy) in order to try and save her marriage.
Your article allowed me to further see the destruction such a lifestyle can have upon someone and also how seductive the lifestyle can be. She told me the only thing she enjoyed were the meetings. She said: “where else can you go that you can dress sexy and dance to the type of music we like (70’s dance music)?”
I can see how seductive such a scenario can be. Dressing sexy, dancing with various attractive men, alcohol to lower inhibitions, etc. I can certainly see how you could find yourself doing things you would not do in more conventional settings.
I do not shame her for her past behavior, nor say things like “how could you do that’? I can fully understand how people can become involved in that lifestyle. But my problem is how this knowledge has fed my insecurities. She assures me that I am more than man enough for her, that I am the best and most exciting lover in her entire life and the best thing that has ever happened to her.
Yet I am tortured by thoughts of her engaging in sex with men based solely on being sexually attracted to them. I wonder about their “size”, did she have threesome’s, how much she enjoyed the sex, etc.
At some level I feel she must’ve enjoyed it and been excited with it.
I recognize that it is her past, long before she met me, and that there is nothing she can do to change her past. As I said, I don’t shame her about it, etc.
Your article has helped me to she that she really was victimized by her husband and his sexual addiction. It has also helped me to take the focus off of my own butt-hurt feelings and allow me to see just what she endured to try and salvage her marriage.
In closing I would like to add….the effects of this “lifestyle” cannot only destroy your marriage but can send ripples into any future relationships a person might have…causing further pain and regret.
Dave,
I am glad that you found the post helpful. There is little I can add in response. Your comments express the issues well. It sounds like it was quite an eye opener. Making a discovery like that has a way of rocking your world.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I have moved on from my broken relationship from my ex, the only problem is I am in a new relation ship after being single for a year and a half. I have not had sex with him yet. I decided to tell him I was a swinger in my past relationship but that I only did it for my husband and I had quit doing years before I left him. Now all he talks about is having a FFM threesome because he has never had one. I have not talked to him for 2 days now. I told him I was not into this lifestyle any longer. I was wondering are there any normal men out there?
Sarah,
There are ‘normal’ men out there who desire a healthy monogamous male-female relationship. There are also men who have a fantasy that they can please two women. I suspect that pornography and movies have fueled that fantasy. My experience tells me that few if any men are capable of doing so without chemical enhancements.
This situation may be a good time for exploring where his fantasy is coming from. You can find out if its driven by pornography, about his sexual proclivities and whether or not he’s been fantasizing about you in an unhealthy manner. Is he interested in you or your past? You may want to ask him “how will a threesome improve the closeness and communication between you and he?”
Threesomes in reality never end with everyone chummy with each other. It changes ALL the relationships. That’s a hug price tag for satisfying one person’s curiosity.
You want him interested in you and only you. Ideally you want a man who is interested in wanting to be with you because he wants to get close to you and love you rather than being his sexual object d’jour. If he was interested in you in a healthy way, I’d be curious about his wanting to bring someone else in on his relationship with you.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I am a military man and am often out of country. I have been married for almost 24 years. I cheated on my wife very early in our marriage and while she was pregnant with our first child. The guilt of the betrayal forced me to confess to her. We got counseling and marriage enrichment classes, and she eventually forgave me. After 13 years of my cheating on her, she suggested we get involved with swinging. I was reluctant about it because she was my wife of 14 years now, and I couldn’t fathom the idea of seeing anyone else or her seeing someone else. After discussing it at length and researching it, I finally agreed. We came up with a set of strict ground rules that we both agreed on. After several MFM encounters, I became quite jealous because partners I had chosen for a FMF encounter were never up to my wife’s standards, and one of the thing we agreed on was that we bot had to agree when choosing our partners. Needless to say, I found it quite aggravating that she always got the partner she wanted in a MFM encounter, but I NEVER got my FMF fantasy fulfilled. I approached her about it and placed the blame on me for not finding a good enough partner. There were also times when we were involved in a threesome (MFM, of course), and I actually ended up getting pushed off to the side while they got their jollies. Another rule we had both agreed on, out the window. We had agreed that if we were involved in a threesome, NOBODY would be excluded. The straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak, was a particular time she had begun consistently dating a man whom I had never met. We had agreed to ONLY threesomes or couple swaps, and now she was seeing someone on the outside whom I had never met. I took the opportunity to explore outside MY bounds of the marriage, too, and began seeing other women alone. My wife became enraged at me for doing the same exact thing she was already doing. My wife actually began shirking her wifely and motherly duties it had gotten so out of hand. There would be days I would come home from work, and all my kids were locked out of the house because my wife was out getting her thrills from someone she had become obsessed with. I would also come home from work, and she was not there to make dinner, or if she was actually home and dinner was ready, she would speedily woof down the food and run out the door to meet with this other man. That left me and the kids to clean up after dinner, do their homework, get them in the bath and into bed. She would usually come home at about the time I was going to bed. Sometimes we would get intimate, but most of the time, her energy was all expended on this other man. The very last straw was when she had asked if it was okay to go out on a date with this guy. I reluctantly agreed to it. She asked a week in advance. I at least had that courtesy. We both agreed she needed to be home by 2am because I had work the next day. To make it work on time, I had to leave the house by 5am. She didn’t get back home until almost 9am. I had tried several times during the night to call her or text message her, and she had deliberately turned her phone off while she was out. Since she was so late getting home, I was unable to make it to work on time. I made arrangements to completely miss that day of work. The kids were all out of state with their grandparents, and my wife and I got into the biggest fight we had ever had, almost ending our marriage then. I pointed out all.of her digressions and how that she hadn’t followed ANY of the rules we had agreed on, and I told her our swinging days were over or I was going to divorce her and kick her out of the house with nothing and told her that she could explain to her very devout Christian parents why I divorced her. She did not want to do that so she agreed to stop everything. She contacted the man she had been seeing and told him it wasn’t going to work out, and we ended the era of swinging. It was five years ago when we decided to quit swinging. We sought counseling again and began working on fixing what had been broken. Five years later, she wants to try swinging again, but this time she swears she will follow all of the rules because she saw what it did to us last time. I don’t want to do it again at all. I’m afraid if I tell her “No”, she will get angry and make me miserable. She swears up and down it will be different and better this time, but I definitely have my strong doubts. During the past five years since we last quit swinging, our marriage has gotten much stronger after our counseling, and I don’t want to see all of this undone because she wants to swing again. It is NOT worth it. Not even a little bit.
Jeff,
You have been through a lot! Your comment “During the past five years since we last quit swinging, our marriage has gotten much stronger after our counseling, and I don’t want to see all of this undone because she wants to swing again.” says a lot.
The longer you are out of swinging, the better. It takes time for your brains and bodies to ‘reset’ after the intensity of swinging. What happens inside is that parts of your brain or hers will want the intense stimulation that swinging provides The rules will not be followed. You are correct when you say “It’s NOT worth it”.
It’s not easy saying no and risking her being upset. One of the side effects of the swinging is how it impacts your self-confidence and creates self-doubt. That self-doubt magnifies the impact of rejection and perceived rejection.
Although you said that she will get angry and make you miserable, the reality is a little different. She is actually letting you know how she is feeling (miserable). At those times when you view it as her communicating to you through actions what she is feeling inside, it will open up some new insights Bear in mind that anger is a secondary feeling. Try finding out what is behind her anger. It may be fear, disappointment, sadness, etc. Given the Christian background of her parents, she may be running from something in her past or rebelling against them through you and being in the lifestyle. That’s not a healthy way of handling such issues. She’s running from something.
Her actions raise questions in my mind about whether she was abused as a child or has some addiction to the level of stimulation provided by the swinging. The craving to go back is very similar to an addict craving their drug of choice.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I’d like to know if it’s possible to cure someone who has been introduced to this lifestyle if they want out ? what are the steps to undo that?
Heaven Sent,
Thank you for writing. Your first question was “is it possible to cure someone who has been introduced to this lifestyle if they want out?” The simple answer is yes. Your choice of the word ‘cure’ is fitting. Leaving it requires interventions on several levels. It’s not just a set of behaviors, it also includes a way of thinking, and a level of stimulation that shares much in common with addictive behaviors.
It’s not something that many people can just choose to quit and they stop. Taking such a cold turkey approach can be done, but its’ TOUGH! It takes time for their brain to gear down from the stimulation of the lifestyle.
They also need a strong support system. The power of the lifestyle community is powerful. Leaving its orbit is quite a transition.
These are the general level tasks that can get you started on the process.
Regards,
Jeff
You say there is a cure for this but is there a cure for a broken heart?
Sarah,
You ask a very profound question. In terms of curing a broken heart, there are several things you need to consider. If your idea of ‘heart’ consists of the center of your feelings and a broken heart consists of hurt feelings, then over time, the feelings will change.
When you view a ‘broken heart’ as an expression for broken relationship bonds and soul fragments, it’s a while different matter. With the many bonds formed in swinging, the risk for the pain of broken bonds and soul fragments is HIGH. I like the term soul fragment since it captures the idea of how part of you is lost and you have parts of other people within you. It’s as if you lost a little more of you with each ‘swap’, until there’s not much of you left.
The pain of soul fragments is an existential and emotional pain. These are not pains that just go away or change over time. They bring a sense of emptiness (as in a hallow sensation). At times, you may also feel torn in many different directions and have trouble focusing.
Healing the soul fragments requires some intensive work. Most don’t heal completely in this area, although it is possible. The reason many don’t heal is that they don’t understand what they are dealing with and what’s required for this type of restorative work.
Regards,
Jeff
There was an earlier comment that was made, where you questioned Frank (April 10th, 2016) about if he thought swingers were more intelligent and mature. You revealed a lot of personal bias in that response, and in all your other responses, which of course is natural, but still your biases are clear. Frank was clearly not saying that swingers as a whole are more intelligent. That was very clear in his statements. All tha could be gathered from what he said was that uninformed/less emotionally intelligent swingers will probably have far less success than informed/emotionally intelligent swingers. This is logical, but also very true, and it was clear that that was what he was saying.
I view all people who frown on alternative lifestyles the same way. Where they see dangers and risks, happier and emotionally secure people see opportunities, and they are willing to work towards success with their choices. I used to have addictions to porn, and I really wasn’t enjoying it anymore. It was only when I realized that porn wasn’t the problem, and that my mind, mental state, addiction, being physically unfit, and living a sedentary lifestyle was the problem. When I fixed all of that, not only did I lose my addition to porn, but I actually enjoyed it 100 times more, when I did watch it. This same effect of realizing that I was the problem, and focusing on self-improvement had a great effect on my sex life. I now enjoy chasing a hedonistic lifestyle because I know that in the end, you are responsible for your own happiness, and that your lifestyle choices always will involve risks of many kinds.
As far as swinging goes, I fell that swinging is a solid option for hypersexual, emotionally secure, well-informed adults. If you don’t have those 3 things, especially the first 2, then I don’t think swinging is really something that a person should pursue. However, you may not have a solid grasp of your level in those 3 things, until you actually pursue it.
Swinging is clearly not really the true problem between married couples developing problems after they swing. Marriage is such a complex thing, and it really should be defined by the couple and their needs and desires, based on who they are and what they truly enjoy. I do feel swinging has its risks, but I’d take those risks over the risks of being physically unfit, eating unhealthy, not actively fulfilling fantasies and being idle with them while suffering inside making them out to be far more impossible to fulfill than they are in reality, and also the risk of just being a joyless human being who can’t take a risk without being dissappointed when you have to deal with issues that come up.
Where others see “risk” and “the dark side” I have grown to see opportunity, as long as I keep my goals and desires realistic. I usually find that both the positive fantasies and the negative risks of any lifestyle choice have both been exaggerated. I have also found that the amount of pleasure you gain from anything is directly proportional to your level of physical, mental, and emotional fitness, with all those things having tremendous feedback on each other. I define my choices, and I deal with the consequences because there is nothing worse than being passive, and letting life pass you by. Terrible things happen every day, but the one thing that always destroys me are unhappy passive people who can’t simply take the chances, and focus on doing the things that can lead to satsfaction and eventually happiness.
AL,
Thank you for writing and sharing your views. You’ve definitely thought through many issues associated with swinging.
Although you are open to swinging, it doesn’t sound like you are very open to those who disapprove of it. (“I view all people who frown on alternative lifestyles the same way.”) Viewing them as all the same limits your horizons.
Your observation, “Where they see dangers and risks, happier and emotionally secure people see opportunities, and they are willing to work towards success with their choices. ” is noteworthy. The same behavior is viewed differently by the different groups. Those differences change what they see. Some see dangers while others see opportunities. I happen to be one who sees many potential dangers. Even you commented that there are ‘risks’ associated with swinging.
You see risks, I see ‘dangers’.
You also defined marriage as “…it [marriage] really should be defined by the couple and their needs and desires, based on who they are and what they truly enjoy.” I view marriage differently. I see it as a lifelong commitment between a husband and wife. For me, it is an institution rather than a hedonistic arrangement. While in that committed relationship, there are times they enjoy and times they don’t enjoy as they learn how to love each other and improve their relationship.
Since we have different views of marriage, we will come to different conclusions.
You stated, “I feel that swinging is a solid option for hypersexual, emotionally secure, well-informed adults.” Keep in mind that as a counselor, my views have been shaped by dealing with the the broken lives of those damaged by swinging. My encounters has seen emotionally shattered, and scarred people who feel trapped or tricked into a way of living they really struggle with.
What you view as ‘hypersexual’, I’ve often seen as ‘sexual addictive behavior’ that seeks gratification and expression. Many sexual addicts seek out swinging as a way of indulging in their behavior. When the urge strikes, they feel compelled to act out. I’m not saying that all swingers have sexual addictions, although I am saying that some sexual addicts hide their behavior within the swingers lifestyle.
You are definitely not a passive person who lets life and opportunities pass you by. It’s encouraging hearing how you define your choices and dealing with the consequences. I wish that many others in the swingers community allowed others to make their own choices as well, rather than forcing their spouses or others into a way of living they don’t really want. I wish other swingers would allow their spouses and partners the freedom to leave without punishing them for their unwillingness to participate in their fantasies.
Regards,
Jeff
I definitely agree that we have much different definitions of marriage. I tend to be very intuitive, and my instincts are usually correct, more often than not, so I trust them. My instincts tell me that you have a strong background/belief in traditional Christian, or at least generally “religious” values. If I’m correct, then your beliefs about marriage spring from this, despite you being trained in aspects of psychology and therapy and social sciences. Thus while you probably have social scientific training, your beliefs are probably grounded in relatively conservative notions of marriage, sex, and the various life choices that people make.
I consider myself to be a very hedonistic person, but not in the normal conotation. For me, the primary thing that drives me is maximizing my pleasure, but because I have a lot of knowledge of science/mathematics, and am well versed in many fields, I use my knowledge to make my decision making process in life as optimal as I can. I also make a conscious effort to improve my ability to evolve this process over time, as I gain access to new information, and as I improve/mature as a human being. Ever since recognizing that seeking higher states of pleasure was what motivated me in life, I have since taken up serious bodybuilding, eating an extremely disciplined healthy diet, and limiting passive activities like masturbation/porn for active activities like sex/dating/relationships/being with motivated, passionate, energetic, intelligently hedonistic women and people. Safe sex is of the most utmost importance to me, as is being in perfect physical, emotional, and psychological health. Being financially successful as well as having a great career and embracing the pleasures that come from being an extremely hard worker, and thus gaining the psychological satisfaction of feeling deserving of the various results of being a hard worker is something that I’ve found that works as a reward mechanism of the mind, which makes me able to enjoy pleasure even more because psychologically I know that I deserve everything I get, since I work harder than anyone around me. Since I focus on being as optimal as I can in all my decision-making, and being as smart as I can in all the things that I do, I don’t question my desires as much as most people do. I focus on my choices in life, and making the best ones, since in the end, this is a major part of what determines your desires in life.
I used to have misinformed notions of what it must like to be a porn star, or and also the traditional notions of being hypersexual. Once I became well-versed in the actual reality of most people’s lives, I came to understand that life is a very big puzzle, and that the best way to approach my life is to truly discover what I want/need/desire, and to act on those things, since the only want to find out what you truly actually end up liking, is to experience said thing, and then decide if it is worth pursuing or not. One mistake that most people in life, especially religious people, make is that they judge themself so harshly for these choices to experience things, and they are so afraid for things to go wrong, that they prevent themselves from the best experiences out of pure fear. Limiting ones life choices just because of fear is honestly one of the saddest things that I see in people. I do not allow fear to be a primary part of my life. I accept that fear is a real thing, and a useful thing, and I confront it as actively and intelligently as I can, and I only allow things that I focus on things that I should legitimately be afraid of as the things to eliminate from my life.
I feel that most people allow themselves to become lazy, overweight, complacent, and to generally allow life to defeat them, and then they crawl to their safety nets of conventional belief systems, out of a failure to give life a true valiant passionate effort of working very hard, and being deserving of the highest pleasures, sexual and otherwise. Once you learn how to be moderate in all things, you learn that moderation in even hypersexuality is not actually counter-intuitive or unrealistic. Just because all the aspects of hypersexuality does not mean that it has to be what I chase every single moment of every day. Addiction doesn’t have to control you. You can control addiction my optimizing your choices. I have taken advantage of controlling my behaviors in order to optimize my mental, sexual, physical, financial, psychological, and emotional states. It has been a tremendous revelation to me that working hard and playing hard while employing as much intelligent moderation as you can is really an increcible formula for being truly happy and satisfied.
I just feel that many people are very passive, and quite emotionally lazy, and fall for so many of the psychological traps of being complacent in how active they are in utiling optimal actions and behaviors to get the things they want out of life, and to gain the satisfaction and happiness that they truly desire. Making excuses that pornography, swinging, sex, strip clubs, and hedonism are dangerous and evil is really quite cowardly because it just isn’t true. Except if you have an inherent belief that these things are evil, based on religion, then I believe the only reason people eventually believe in the danger of these things is simply because they allow aging, and the challenges that life presents people who don’t fight the good life of maintaining a truly motivated, elevated, energetic, passionate state of mind, approaching life every day with a diligient/disciplined effort at being as optimal as we can in everything that we can consciously control and do, so that everything that results from our optimal actions is thus as optimal as we are humanly able to influence with our actions. You can only control what you do, but when you are doing the best that you can, all the time, and doing your best at doing this itself, then you will simply get the best that you can out of life. There is no way to get more out of life, than by simply being optimal, and making sure to be cognisant of this as you can be every day, and doing the necessary things that ensure you are giving your best effort every day. I have gained tremenous happiness from focusing on this, and it has allowed me to understand why seeking pleasure in a healthy way, driven by discipline and moderation and balance, is really the driving force that leads to a happy life. Pleasure can come from many things. Sex is just one of them, and much like other pleasures, sex is better when it is great, and when you have it in the whatever frequency truly satisfies you. Trying to have sex all the time, for anyone is a foolish thing, and is simply addiction controlling you, but if you are realistic with your needs, and are diligent in how you approach them, then you will be able to determine the amount and quality and type of sexual experiences that are most optimal for you, and you will be able to incorporate this into your life as you grow, mature, and evolve as a human being.
Despite not being very big on quotes, I believe strongly in the following many things Bertrand Russell says:
“The man who is unhappy will, as a rule, adopt an unhappy creed, while the man who is happy will adopt a happy creed; each may attribute his happiness or unhappiness to his beliefs, while the real causation is the other way round.”
“Morality in sexual relations, when it is free from superstition, consists essentially in respect for the other person, and unwillingness to use that person solely as a means of personal gratification, without regard to his or her desires.â€
“You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principle enemy of moral progress in the world.”
AL,
You have definitely thought out your position, which is something that many others have not done. You make a rational and reasoned case for your position.
Since we disagree on some key basic presuppositions, we arrive at very different conclusions. We have different definitions of marriage, morality along with the role of fear. Those differences take us to different conclusions along with coloring the conclusions each of us has arrived at. The different starting points and presuppositions is how your view of moral progress and mine are vastly different, along with what has contributed to either progress or hindrance of morals.
Although there are some points we disagree on, I do agree about the wisdom in moderation. This is especially true when it comes to indulging in desires and seeking their gratification.
Although I would enjoy discussing many of your conclusions about moral progress and what contributes or hinders it, given the purpose of the blog, it would take me outside of the area of focus and concern.
I too am suffering the effects of swinging tearing apartments marriage and my husband hiding his sex addiction and cheating under the auspices of being in the lifestyle. I wasn’t manipulated into the doing things I didn’t want really want or need just to please him (and to keep him from being cheating – which he did anyway). But of course course I’m the one to blame. Our 20 year relationship with 3 children is over.
After 9 years of the lifestyle – most of then spent arguing over crossing boundaries and breaking rules, then ‘tit for the Tat’ retaliation, I discovered he wasn’t having a long term secret affair with one of my ex best friends who I told him to stay away from and told her the same. She was a trusted adult among our children – even on their emergency contact list at School.
We were “out” of the lifestyle for 2 years at that point. I found video of the two of them a month and a half ago. The betrayal is brutal. I am currently going to s-anon groups and don’t feel I belong. I’ve also attended Al-anon and I don’t know belong there either. Reading everyone’s stories I see the people I need support from. Is there any way all of us here can start an online support group? Maybe a through Facebook secret group? I am shattered and I’m looking to connect with others who know what I am going through. I am asking for help from everyone here. Please let’s help each other heal…I need to to connect with with others who have been throughout similar situations because right now its all fresh and raw and I’m bleeding out with no one who understands.
Deb,
Thank you for writing. I like your idea. I was a little slow in responding due to some personal challenges that happened over the past few days. Your idea for a group is a good one. I am exploring ways of making that happen. The facebook closed group is a viable option. I will respond to you via private email when more details are known.
It often takes someone familiar with the unique challenges to understand the agony and tough choices that happen.
Your letter has many truths inside it that will benefit others. One is the whole idea of how sexual addictions can be hidden in the lifestyle. When the lifestyle is used in hiding an addiction, it damages everyone.
It also complicates interventions and makes understanding what is going on problematic. It makes it hard to know what the ‘root problems’ are. When you don’t intervene on the root issues, it becomes a tail chasing episode of running after symptoms.
The running after symptoms makes those living with the addict in such cases will wear you out in many ways.
Best regards,
Jeff
Deb, Sarah and Others,
I wanted to let you know that I have listened. A membership site has been developed and is now available. It is Restored Lifestyle. I kept the name innocuous for many reasons. I believe you will find the site helpful in terms of information, support and resources. We are still adding some sections, so it will continue being improved.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Too many typos. Sorry. In upset. I WAS manipulated. Ny marriage was torn APART. My children are suffering bc their parents are breaking up
I totally agree with the support group.
Sarah,
Thank you for sharing that. We are working on a domain for the support group (http://www.RestoredLifestyle.com) right now along with setting up the structures. More to follow in the coming days.
Regards,
Jeff
PS-The site is now live.
Deb, Sarah and Others,
I wanted to let you know that I have listened. A membership site has been developed and is now available. It is Restored Lifestyle. I kept the name innocuous for many reasons. I believe you will find the site helpful in terms of information, support and resources. We are still adding some sections, so it will continue being improved.
Best Regards,
Jeff
My ex and ex bff still continue to think we should all get along. I was invited to go out to my ex’s cabin along with the ex married bff. I told him no as the sleeping arrangements are that they get to sleep together in the bed and I get the couch. I told him no as it is not fair to me. He acted hurt but I am the one who is hurt. He has always chosen her over me and that is why I left him. She even thinks things should go back to the old days. But all they do is think of themselves and screw my feelings. And they act like I am the one who has the problem. Like I said before my heart is broken or should I say my soul is broken. Thanks for letting me have my rant.
Sarah,
Thank you for sharing your ‘rant’. The after effects of swinging are definitely ‘not fair’. Bonding and attachment happens anytime you have relations. This is one of the dangers of recreational sex. You can use birth control and condoms, but neither protects your heart or the other person’s heart. Another consequence is the extreme self-focus and loss of sensitivity to others as you experienced first hand.
Best Regards,
Jeff
This is an update to my December 2016 comment.
My marriage has completely fallen apart. I fell into a deep depression a while after my original post,but with the help of a good therapist, I have come a long way in regaining my power.
My therapist had also met with two of our children separately, then did some family counseling with the three of us.
She said, “If even just a fraction of what you have told me is true, and I have no reason to doubt any of it – this man is a Narcissist.”
In learning of my husband’s personality disorder, every doubt, every time he blamed me for our problems, suddenly made sense.
I am now in the process of finding a place of my own, and plan to divorce him.
My question for you is this:
Are personality disorders common among those spouses who insist or try to coerce a husband or wife into swinging?
Delia,
It’s good hearing the update. It’s always encouraging hearing about healing and regaining power. Moving past the sensation of being trapped and powerless is always good.
You ask a fascinating question. You asked, “Are personality disorders common among those spouses who insist or try to coerce a husband or wife into swinging?” I had not considered the entry into swinging in terms of personality disorders. Since I haven’t investigated things from that angle, I don’t have a definitive answer.
What I can say is that I’ve seen narcissistic qualities frequently within that community among the coercers. The more sex, the more selfishness and self-focus develops. Since the extreme self-focus is common with narcissists, it wouldn’t surprise me that many would be narcissists. I also see many qualities associated with addictive personality types as well.
I’ll be looking into this area to see if I can see any further patterns.
Jeff
Its so painful and hard to understand? what was meant to be sacred to two individuals (man and wife) becoming one flesh has now been turned into something else.
For years I developed some kind of hatred for these swinger website b’cos I believe they were selling deception,an illusion and lies to destroy marriages, families and the future generation.
My heart broke when I saw the story of a beautiful couple with four children who got divorced after swinging. Because the husband did not get attention from other wives but his wife got some. And the whole thing was the husband’s idea and worst of it all was that the whole thing was a live realty show.
I was like, was there no one this couple could have talked to before taking such a step? What will become of the children should they see it or hear? But when I came across this page I had glimpse of hope that all is not lost. God bless you Jeff.
Being comfortable with swinging is like being comfortable with cheating. Alot more times we take our eyes from the beautiful marriages we have,looking and admiring that which destroys what we have, all for self fantasy.
There are things in this world that can be shared but not a wife or husband (your soul mate). It is said,in the mathematics of marriage 1+1=1 but swinging makes it 1+1+1=3.Let me also take this opportunity to say Parents should try as much as they can to be involve with the kind of friends our kids keep and who their parents are?
Couples should Share their Love stories with their children and advice them on sex. We should not leave sex as a topic for Hollywood,teachers or friends.
There is a role only a wife or a mother can play in the family and there is a role only a man or father can play in the family, when we sacrifice that role not only is a marriage destroyed but a whole generation. Thank so much Jeff. This site is worth spreading.
MJ,
Thank you for writing. It’s encouraging hearing that there are others who have similar concerns.
I enjoyed your formulas. I find that with swinging, it’s not 1+1+1=3 but more like 1+1+n=5. (If I could put an exponent on it I would). Keep in mind that anytime you sleep with someone, you sleep with everyone they’ve slept with in terms of exposure to bodily fluids and bonding related issues.
There’s definitely some role issues as well as you stated. The role confusion creates problems as well. Many swingers don’t see these problems until it’s too late. The swinger community is an isolates society. That society aspect effectively puts blinders on those in the middle of it.
I not too recently found out that my late 50’s friend is swinging with a man who she has had all kinds of relationship anxiety over. Now she is supposedly happier since he made her a “primary” partner. She has never told me she was in the lifestyle. Another friend accidentally leaked it to me. I kept telling her, based on what she was willing to share over her anxiety about other women in this man’s life, that he sounded like a sex addict.
I found out she drives to larger towns to accompany him to sex clubs.
My problem with all this is that I don’t want to be around her anymore. I understand fully that monogamy is not for everyone, but this swinging thing, to where they are visiting sex clubs, makes me a certain kind of sick.
Two weeks ago, she invited me out for a drink with her and her boyfriend. I didn’t even reply. I am away dealing with a family matter but when I go back to where I live, I don’ want to continue spending any time with her one on one where all she talks about is this guy and tries to give me dating advice that she doesn’t follow.
I was having an issue with her company for other reasons anyway before I knew all this.
I am having trouble understanding why it has affected me so strongly. It’s to the point where, when I think of her, I feel kind of sick.
Catherine,
Thank you for writing to me. The swinging lifestyle often triggers reactions of one type or another. It is a whole other culture which has its own set of rules, and behavioral guidelines. Those rules are counter to traditional family values. Given the principle of sympathetic vibration, you will either accommodate those values or they will bother you to the point of taking offense. There is no middle ground.
The sick feeling is a natural reaction. When you take something in, including information that doesn’t agree with you or your values, the sick response is a natural one.
I can’t say that everyone in the lifestyle is a sex addict, although some sex addicts do go into the lifestyle. Their involvement is part of their addiction. Being in the lifestyle provides a modicum of acceptance for their situation. It doesn’t make their addiction acceptable. It just gives them a place where they don’t feel ostracized along with others not questioning them and their ‘kink’. The community often turns a blind eye to aberrant behaviors and addictions.
I hope this helps you in coming to grips with the situation.
Keeping It Real,
Jeff
Hi, I recently likelastveeek found out my husband has been a swinger our entire marriage and just found in his safari search his swing lifestyle profile. Complete devastation . Never asked me to join, when I confronted him about just cheating he would always tell me I’m crazy and over baring and driving him nuts. I had this sinking feeling and never found anything until forgot to delete the last search And I picked up his phone to search what time Lowe’s was open till that day! I think I’m having a nervous break down. We have 3 kids and my oldest is getting married this summer, I’ve asked him to leave for a week or two to give me some time to think but he left for a day and returned. Won’t leave the house and I work from home. He’s asked me to just forget it because no one knows but the 2 of us and we can just move on because he’s done with it. I can’t belive that it’s been going on this long. I don’t know how to survive this one, it’s killing me because other then this we have a pretty good marriage. This is somthing I don’t do ask people for advice but I’m lost. He says it was the idea of men asking him to have sex with their wives that was his attraction, he is a very vain man and into himself since day one. But the countless times that he has done this I’m losing my mind, btw I read ALL the instant messages and read every last word and it’s killing me because we have a good sex life and everything he did or said he has said to me so it’s not like it’s some dirty thing that I have refused him or denied him. Please help
How can I ever trust him again, he was my best friend and told him everything and I feel more then betrayed. I now feel so alone
Thanks S.
Sandra,
Thank you for writing to me. Making a discovery like you did is certainly a heavy blow. Although he wants to keep it a secret between the two of you, it needs to be dealt with an resolved. he may be out of it, yet the damage it has done by keeping secrets and betraying trust is very real. The hurts and betrayals will need to be resolved, otherwise they fester and turn into resentments and bitterness, which are poisonous to the health of your marriage.
In some ways, you are alone in carrying the burden of guilt for the both of you. You are the one carrying the pain at this moment. In working through the issues, the burden of pain will shift.
If nothing else, you may want him to be tested and yourself to rule out medical based issues. You may also want to explore whether or not there is an underlying sexual addiction going on as well. Jumping into threesomes suggests something is going on that’s more than just a secret habit. These were affairs, plain and simple. These are not just things you can forget. This is not a bad dream that you wake up from and its over.
There are some serious matters going on that need attention. Your description makes it sound like he’s denying the seriousness of what happened, and is minimizing your pain. At this point, he doesn’t understand it. With his vanity, he may not believe he did anything wrong other than getting caught, which shows some possible narcissistic overtones.
There are many resources on the site that will help. Use the comments to raise questions and find answers to the struggles you are facing. It helps knowing that others are also working through such issues.
If you have specific questions, you can join the Restored Lifestyle community or email me at Jeff@RestoreTheFamily.com
Keeping It Real,
Jeff
I just tried swinging with my husband this weekend. It’s ruined my image of my husband as this loving savior into a man that let a man I never met go down on me while his wife sucked off my husband and asked him to have sex and my husband almost did it!! I’m just so scared about what’s next and we have had a loving marriage for 8 years. We’ve been through up and downs but this is too much for me! I can’t eat or sleep well over all the anxiety! I told him we were just going to check it out not plunge in the water. I’m very depressed! I’m 39 and my husband is 44.
Jen,
Thank you for writing. I’m sure it took courage or a lot of pain to share your experience. After such an emotional jolt, I can see why you’d feel depressed. You have good reason to be scared of what will happen next. It will only get deeper and more intense if you stay on the present path.
Your image of your husband has now changed. That poses a threat to the spirit of oneness in your marriage. What was once an exclusive relationship is now threatened by the intrusion of others.
Once you cross the line of sleeping with someone else, it can’t be undone. His willingness to do so is concerning. The scenario you described is also about de-sensitizing both of you. When you and your spouse are emotionally aroused, the both of you will be easier to manipulate into other acts.
You’ve seen a side of each of you that can happen. At this time, you still have some control and the ability to make choices. Once the intense emotions are aroused and bonding with others happens, the amount of control and will power lessens.
If you want the marriage you had, the time to get out is NOW! Start repairing your marriage and strive for the development of healthy intimacy between the two of you. Direct your curiosity to finding out more about your spouse rather than experimenting with others. Your intense reaction is an early warning if you listen to it, which I hope you do.
The reactions will only get stronger and more intense is you choose to continue going deeper.
Keeping It Real,
Jeff
I had a dear friend who was as swinger. I missed the boat in being one of many in a parade of side ho’s.
I feel sorry for the wife. I got attached and heartbroken and I was only somebody who was there for a show.
Was quite an act, quite a performance. It’s an opera one never should sit to close to it.
Felicia,
Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s definitely a whole other world with various degrees and shades of swinging. Your comment about being “…one of many in a parade..” is quite descriptive. There are many interactions without depth or sense of connection.
Few realize that even in ‘watching the show’, you become part of the drama unfolding in front of you.
Jeff
I don’t know where to turn or where to find help- I feel like I’m a prisoner with my thoughts-if that makes any sense. Here’s some background: My husband and I have been married 40 years. Around 25 years into our marriage my husband took me to a sex club (I didn’t know where we were going until we got there).
We had sex together but with no one else- my husband thoroughly enjoyed others watching us and loved the evening. While some aspects of the night were somewhat of a turn on for me, overall I did not like it or want to do it again. My husband convinced me to go a few more times (within a year or 2) saying we didn’t have to do anything with anyone else and and we didn’t.
After going a few times I just couldn’t do it anymore- it’s not “meâ€, I didn’t see what good could come out of it (other than satisfying my husband), i could see so much potential for bad things to happen, and I didn’t feel safe- although my husband belittles my feelings about that b/c he says he wouldn’t let anything happen that I didn’t want to happen.
It made him upset that I wouldn’t go anymore and said that a compromise would be to go once a year on Halloween. He says that I agreed to that (which I honestly don’t remember doing, but maybe I did in desperation at the time).
Anyway when he brought up going to a sex club the next Halloween and I said I wouldn’t go and didn’t remember saying that I would, he became very angry and said that I didn’t care about his feelings at all and he said that he would NEVER go to a sex club with me even if I wanted to. After that he became rather distant and I felt like he was “punishing†me. 10 years ago we experienced a crisis in our marriage – he kind of came at me full force with all kinds of things he didn’t like about me (we have struggled in our marriage over the years) with the insinuation that if I / things didn’t change he was out.
I know that I have contributed to the problems in our marriage and that I have caused a lot of hurt over the years too. Since then I feel like I have been trying but admit that at times I feel so beaten down from his coldness to me it’s been hard. Since then he has not told me he loves me once – without me saying it first and he quit giving me cards for special occasions etc.
About 3 weeks ago I discovered he was cheating on me. I found out by picking up his iPad to turn it off (he had fallen asleep watching the news on it) and when I picked it up the screen he was on before popped up – it was a swing site. There were pictures on I of him and another woman (I know her) having sex etc. I confronted him and found out he started having an affair with her 10 years ago (about 3 months BEFORE he started “attacking†me with the problems in our marriage).
Not only am I dealing with the devastation of a TEN YEAR AFFAIR, but the fact that they were going to swing together. He claims they hadn’t yet, but would have. At this point I’m waiting for him to decide if he wants to give her up so we can try to make our marriage work. He says he loves her, that she’s his best friend and she compromises on things unlike me.
He says he loves me too and he’s sorry he hurt me. I’m suffering and have no where to turn b/c ultimately I want our marriage to work out so I don’t want to tell any friends at this point and we also have 3 grown kids and grand kids that would be
devastated so I / we don’t want them knowing anything until we know if the marriage is over.
Also she has a husband and 5 high school / college kids. I’m so afraid That he’ll choose this fantasy life with her and the fact she’s willing to swing etc over me and our family, but I’m also afraid if he chooses me he’ll resent me for the rest of our marriage.
Wendy,
Thank you for sharing your situation here. Being a prisoner of your thoughts makes perfect sense to me. Getting help often starts with asking for it.
I’ll share a few comments and observations on your situation. Since this is a public forum, you may want to consider joining http://www.RestoredLifestyle.com if you’re wanting more in-depth responses and support community.
There are many issues going on. It’s hurts hearing how your husband was so focused on his gratification that he ignored your needs, fears and concerns. From what you’ve shared, you love him very much and want to see him happy.
I felt sadness reading how he has handled the situation. He didn’t respond to your fears and protect you and your concerns. Belittling your concerns only makes the situation worse. He’s been so focused on himself and his own jollies that he hasn’t seen how he has hurt you with his demands. He hasn’t treated you with sensitivity and making you feel special.
News of a long term affair is always devastating. Those kind of affairs feel like they rip years out of your life.
I wonder if it was by accident you discovered it or if he wanted you to. His actions show a petty quality of tit-for-tat kind of thinking. I wish he knew how developing and showing some sensitivity would improve things.
You are definitely hemmed in by the many secrets that are making things worse. There’s many people touched by the lives of your husband and the lover. There’s going to be a lot of hurt the longer the situation goes on.
Your husband’s comments about the lover make it clear that although he says he loves her, he still cares more about himself than her. That may work to your advantage in that he isn’t committed to her best interest or the relationship itself.
He seems more enthralled with his fantasy life than with the relationships he has in real life.
These are just a few observations.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I will look into that website.
I just found out that a close friend of mine started swinging, after almost 20 years of marriage. They have always had a strong relationship and a relationship that I have admired and looked up to. Now, I feel the opposite. I am having a very hard time not judging my friend and her husband. It’s to the point that I feel uncomfortable seeing her. She wants to introduce me to the other couple (on a social level) they primarily swing with, and I want nothing to do with the entire situation. I have a lot of anxiety with the thought of even meeting them. I am disgusted with the whole thing. How do I proceed?
Anonymous,
Thank you for writing. Facing a discovery like that is both shocking and unsettling. Your reactions to your close friend’s situation indicates that your friendship is a close one. This makes it more challenging.
My thoughts are that your best option is declining to meet the other couple. Although your friend may not be predatory, some couples in swinging are. They are always looking for ‘fresh couples’ and work at softening others up to the choice of swinging. The lifestyle has a way of becoming all-consuming for those involved.
Meeting the other couple will also put you into a position where you start viewing your close friend in a totally different light. That different light will permanently change the relationship. The bonds you have will be changed in a way that can’t be undone. The more you know the other couple and the secret side of your friend, the more your views will change.
Down the road you may need to limit your social contact with your friend. I know from my own experiences that this is not an easy option. I have had several situations where I had to cut off social contact with others while they were doing things that I had strong convictions about. The situations each turned around, yet at the time, I didn’t know what would happen.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I have a friend couple that have been married 15 years. They have always had a very strong marriage, strong communication skills, openness and respect for each other. They have been swinging for some time, and are now dating a couple (in a “monogamous” way.) My friend and her husband seem so happy and confident with their decision, and have clear cut boundaries with each other while doing this lifestyle. I can’t help but feel this is not going to end well?
(PS. I do question if my friend has an alcohol use disorder as they have had to put “limits/conditions” on their drinking, historically).
Anonymous,
Thank you for writing to me about your concerns. Since you don’t have a specific question, I’ll respond to your concerns expressed.
From what you shared, I can see your concern about things not ending well. Anytime an outside force limits on their behavior, it tells me that the self-imposed boundaries aren’t working well. When people lose control in one area, they typically lose control in other areas of self-gratification as well.
With long term alcohol use, there is also the impairment of arousal. It raises the question of whether the swinging is a form of self-medication. Since I don’t know him, I can’t answer if this is the actual situation.
The dating phase is always fun and exhilarating. I see potential problems when the ‘newness’ of the situation wears off.
From what you said about the alcohol, I’m skeptical about the ‘very strong marriage, strong communication skills, openness and respect for each other”. If he had good relationship skills, strong communication skills, openness, etc. then I wonder ‘Why the alcohol use disorder’? I typically don’t see people with such a skill set having alcohol use disorders. It’s possible, but not likely.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Anonymous,
I suspect they are in a ‘honeymoon’ phase of swinging. They are enjoying the sex without accountability. Putting limits on the use of alcohol is not a good sign. Typically it suggests poor impulse control.
among them acquired “Moral
I am dealing with insane jealousy. I have never been in that lifestyle. However, I am in love with a man that in his past marriage was very active and involved in the lifestyle. He states he is no longer interested in that lifestyle anymore. It was more her thing and he never wants it again. I am trying to trust this. However, I feel very intimated by his past.
I know it shouldn’t matter what he did before me, but it’s bothering me. This is something I would have never gotten involved in. I don’t judge those that do. If you are an adult and consenting you should be able to express your sexuality in whatever way you chose. I don’t look down on him for it. I just worry I won’t measure up. I worry he won’t be completely happy with monogamy or vanilla as it’s called, which if I am honest feels like a judgment on monogamy. Anyway. He tries to reassure me but nothing he says makes me feel any better. I am really contemplating if I can overcome my insecurities and jealousy or if I need to end things.
Please don’t bash me and tell me the past is the past. Yes, it is but this still stings. Any positive input is welcome. Thank you.
Jealous,
Those having married and divorced before often carry with them some insecurity leftovers from their relationships. Those insecurities often show up/pop up when not expected. When they do, it helps when you can identify what the trigger was (e.g. something someone said, an old photo, etc.) If the trigger represents a real threat, then the insecurity has a rational basis. If there is no rational basis, then it is more of a free floating insecurity.
When dealing with swingers one of the issues that comes up is the topic of fantasies. You may have fantasies about what they did. It is important to separate the fantasies from the person in front of you. At times what you imagine they did creates internal tensions. It is best not to be too curious about their past. The more you know, the more vivid the mental pictures in your mind about what happened. People often have questions about those who were in the swinger community. There are times those questions turn into ‘fascination’ and fantasizing. Make it a point to avoid that area as much as possible.
There is also the issue of bonding. Each of those they have been with have a bond with them. Those bonds are a concern for anyone dating someone who was in the lifestyle. They can be activated at times and places you don’t expect. If the person is truly out of the lifestyle, then they would have addressed this issue. If they have not addressed it, there is a possibility they are still vulnerable to it.